Posted by: Jay | July 16, 2007

Mormonism worse than child molestation?

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Wow, when I saw this I had to put it up on my blog. I think it is pretty bad when non-LDS critics of the Mormon faith have to sink this low. Not only is it unchristian, but very saddening to see what bigotry will lead people to say.

The sign in no way makes me want to be a part of the authors religion or viewpoint. If they can say something as outrageous as this about Mormons, what other outrageous views do they hold?


Responses

  1. wowzers! and Christians wonder why I think we need to apologize to Mormons.

    • Not that I support this type of action, but for interest sake you may want to check out Megan List ,scary how many pedophiles there are in SLC After all it doesn’t seam strange to me they follow a “religion” started by a pedophile, Joseph Smith married not one but two 14year olds when he was 37 not to mention the sisters, the mother daughter and many, that were already married.
      I would never choose this approach to share truth with these people, but there is some truth to what he says !
      No apologies necessary! What I say about street preachers, it not my cup of tea but at least they are doing something about this blasphemous religion!
      Chears

  2. So just where is this van suppose to be driving and who is the owner? Fairs seems to be the source of the picture or did you do this (hmmm?
    I think this is horrible, no matter who did it but…
    Let me ask you a question if I might. Just when do you think the Mormons will remove the first vision that condemns ALL Christian churches? Or do they need to apolgize and then remove the attack made by Josesph Smith?

  3. Nauvoo,

    FAIR sent the photo to my email. I didn’t try to conceal that, as you noticed. I have no reason to doubt that it is real. I have been to many events (i.e Manti pageant, Hill Cumorah pageant, temple open houses, etc.) put on by the LDS Church. While I have never seen this particular sign, I have seen many similar signs hoisted by “Christians” that somehow think it would change an LDS members mind about their beliefs. If you think it doesn’t happen I encourage you to go to these pageants and see for yourself. I’ve even had people shine lights in my face video taping me as they yell at the top of their lungs saying I’m going to hell. Go figure.

    I keep hearing the same complaint about the first vision. I really don’t think it compares to things like what is in this picture. When was the last time you saw an organized Mormon group picket a non-LDS Christian event, yelling and insulting them? Actions speak louder than words. It is interesting that non-LDS critics condemn the first vision’s condemnation of Christian Churches, but then turn around and do the exact same thing in sermons they give in their church. I have attended and listened to some of these meetings. I think it is very sad. In contrast any negative word said in an LDS chapel about other Christian faiths is rare and usually said by a convert that doesn’t understand yet that we don’t do that.

    I guess I just don’t understand why non-LDS critics feel like they need to tear down the LDS faith. If it is false, then an honest seeker will discover that given time. Why not talk about your doctrines? Why not give support for your position? If its true then you don’t have to tear others down to get through to them.

    Yes, I’m aware that Christ occasionally threw tables and chastised people, but that wasn’t every time he spoke. Most of his sermons are the opposite of that. This, to me, emphasizes that there are times to “wake someone up” but these are more the exception than the rule. In some churches it has become the rule and not the exception.

    • It was not that Jesus was turning tables over in the temple, It is the reason he was turning tables over, the reason was, that the most religious ones, were making a den of thieves out of the temple and preaching false doctrine. Jesus takes blasphemy very seriously we are warned over and over about following false doctrine. Yes Jesus was tearing down other “religions” And I guess you could say that his actions were not very Christ like! After all that is what got him convicted was coming against these “religious” ones!

  4. Although I don’t participate very much in the church anymore, I don’t go around antagonizing people. I have my own blog with things that have led to my disillusionment, but I don’t force people to read it. I still think it is bigoted for people to say that Mormons aren’t Christian because they have a different belief system. However, I come from the standpoint where I have questioned the entire Christianity movement. I am not at the point yet, but I think for me it will take time until I sort everything out in my mind.

    Nauvoo Christian- I can see where you are coming from, but that statement is pretty much dead in the church. Although I still hear the rhetoric “only true church”, I don’t hear the “other churches are an abomination” silliness anymore.

  5. Zelph,
    This is not meant as an attack, but did you ever hear LDS Church officials speak ill of other Christian churches (i.e. condemning them to hell, mocking their beliefs, teaching why a specific religion is wrong)? Did you ever have a class about a religion that taught why it was wrong in a Mormon church? I’m just curious to know what your experience in the LDS faith was.

    I’m not saying that among individual members outside of church don’t have some conversations of this type. But the LDS Church does not support such activities. Infact it does the opposite. This is not what I see in many other Christian churches. I think it is sad.

  6. Jay
    Your entire purpose in putting up that photo was to get something started period! I knew you got it from FAIR, just wanted to hear you say that was the case, thank you. Fair is not owned by nor affilated with the (LDS) Mormon Chruch. The Mormon leadership will not allow FAIR to be an offical mouth piece but does use them if it serves their agenda! As to the attack against all other Churches. It began day one, minute one, of the founding of the Mormon church. In every Mormon quad you will read: “I was answered I must join none of them, for they (who are the they) were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight (whose sight?)…(Joseph Smith-History 1:19)
    And while you are at it look up the word “abomination” Here we have JS saying that Jesus Christ called ALL churches an abomination. Why is this still in Mormon scripture today, if you aren’t attacking all other Chrisitans and trying to get them to leave their Church and go into Mormonism?

  7. Nauvoo,
    Quite honestly I was not trying to start anything other than a conversation. I wanted to see what others thought about this sign. I wanted to know if people actually agree with it. I don’t understand the mentality of people that do these kinds of things. If you are someone that thinks this sign or other methods I’ve mentioned above are legitimate, please explain yourself.

    I’m curious as to why you are so concerned with where the photo came from (A fact that is obvious to all that view it) and yet don’t respond to the fact that I have experienced the same outlandish behavior from some that profess to be Christian. Do you deny that they occur? Are you implying that this picture is a fabrication? Given my past experience I am willing to say it is not.

    Contrary to your presumption, I’ve never heard any LDS Church official quote FAIR as a source, so I’m not sure of what you mean by “The Mormon leadership will not allow FAIR to be an offical mouth piece but does use them if it serves their agenda!”. FAIR is an apologetic site. Its main purpose is to offer logical explanations to controversial Mormon topics, not to degrade other religions.

    Opposing false doctrine, as you see it, is one thing. This photo is not doing that at all. It is an inappropriate attempt to insult members of the LDS faith. It establishes an environment of bigotry that cannot promote dialog or offer opportunity to share truth, which should be the goal of all Christians non-LDS or not.

    The phrase you picked out of LDS scripture is simply an historical account given by Joseph Smith of his vision of God and Christ. Members of the LDS Church do not use it to condemn other religions, but simply to show that the true church of Christ had been taken from the earth and only remnants remained. If it were not so there would be no reason for Joseph Smith to restore anything. Nobody in the LDS faith sits around saying, “Those Catholics or those Muslims are despicable. Aren’t they so ignorant for not being Mormon? How can they possibly believe what they do? They’re all going to hell.” This kind of talk is meaningless. Which is why I don’t understand why many other Christian sects engage in it.

    Why does there have to be hostility to start a conversation? Why can we just talk and share scripture. Where we disagree we can admit it and still respect one another. Instead I see many that wish to denigrate not only the Mormon faith, but also any other one that doesn’t conform to their view of Christianity. Even within mainstream Christianity this is a problem between denominations. I think this is very sad because it has the affect of pushing people away instead of engaging them.

    I’m not attempting to say the every non-LDS Christian would support the sign above. I know that there are many that find this kind of tactic reprehensible. Those are the people I feel comfortable conversing with because I know they really are interested in talking about Christ. I know they will be reasonable and respectful.

  8. Jay

    I agree with you that sign is a disgrace really and it just represents a few fanatics .

    However you have fanatics in the mormon church as well . Just read some of the early comments by prophets and apostles of the LDS church in relation to other religions .

    I was told by a fanatic that I was insincere otherwise I’d have had my Moroni promise/experience and also that I was siding with Satan ( in relation to telling a couple of recent converts the true version of events in church History ) . It seems that Honesty in his view is representing Satan .

    Then you have the D&C statement that this is the only true church on the face of the earth.

    You have the Book Of Mormon saying that all churches not of the true one are of the devil .

    So what do you expect ,respect for telling everyone they are false , from the devil , from The Mother Of Harlots , that Jesus Himself told Joseph they are all wrong ?

    You can’t have it both ways .

    Mormonism is a religion by its own definition that can only be true because all the others are false .

    Although I notice in recent times the church has softened its criticising of other churches .In Sacrament meeting I hear many times that other churches are deficient and Mormonism the only true church .

  9. EJ,
    These are all general statements about other Churches. The LDS Church does not single out certain denominations to demean them. Nor does it give sermons or classes that “educate” their members about other faiths and how they are wrong.

    The only possible example that someone might use to show that Mormons attack other Christians is Bruce R. McConkie’s mention of the Catholic Church as the church of the devil mentioned in the Book of Mormon. He was forced to take that statement out in subsequent editions of his book. McConkie, like Brigham Young, was prone to say outlandish things. It is unfortunate, but it is the rare exception rather than the rule.

    • When I hear people standing up and bearing a personal testimony as to the the LDS church being true (as I did last Sunday, from a sister in the church), I think in these terms, that for them, there is nothing closer, nothing more right on, that has guided them to a happy and fulfilling life. Wouldn’t you expect that a Catholic woman would say the same about Mass, or even more specifically, her parish? Or a Jewish woman who knows that her religion is true? For her. Or a man saying the same thing. Look, people aspire to improve their lives by embracing their faith, and it is not to denigrate or put down others (as a whole), but when they give testimony of their faith as true (for them, and can be for others), it is a celebration of what the faith has done, and means to them, personally. It is not a put-down of other religions.

  10. What a wonderfully counter-productive way to advance ones religious opinion. This is rally the troops talk, it doesn’t convince anybody who is not already anti-Mormon to a degree of questionable mental competency.

  11. Agreed. I really don’t know how anyone can justify this approach or others like it.

  12. Jay, I’ve got to tell you that you are on the ball when you explain and defend the views of the church.
    I noticed that Joseph Smiths account of the first vision was mentioned where he says all otehr religions are an abomination. Didnt he also say “For they draw near to me with their lips but their hearts are far from me.” This sign is a PERFECT example of that. They claim that they are true fallowers of Jesus Christ but then they go out and are hateful towards a group of people that they dont even know.
    I served a mission in an area that was full of people who were like that. They would go to church and claim to worship Christ but then they would throw treat me horribly.
    “By thier fruits ys shall know them”

  13. Hmm, this sign is not only degrading to Mormons, but it is degrading to Homosexuals as well.

    Does anyone remember the “white bible” that you got when you went on your mission? (not sure if they still do that) but if you read it, it is perfectly clear that the LDS church believes the Catholic church is the Great and Abominable Church. At least mine was.

    I think Mormons need to understand that local congregations have lost members to the LDS faith due to member and missionary proselyting. This puts them on the defensive. I’m not condoning the tactics, just merely explaining the reason…kind of like the MMM.

    There are also many local congregations that do not elicit anit-mormon dogma, and do many great things in the community. Where do they fit into the “by their fruits ye shall know them”

    Statements like that are used to group and condemn all non-LDS faiths and are not much better than what we are seeing in the picture.

  14. Rick,

    I agree with you. This disgusting display and others like it are hoisted by a few fanatics. However it is a reflection of what is taught in the churches to which these people belong. Overall I would say that Christian churches are good, just as I would say that the Mormon church is good overall.

    My “white bible” didn’t have the same passages that you are referring to. Do you still have yours? Would you scan in the pages you are referring to and post them? I would really be interested in knowing what it says.

  15. I will try to find it, but not sure I still have it.

    I just stated in another post, that the LDS actively preach that other Christian Churches are wrong, and it is not just the fanatics, but ALL full-time missionaries and ALL Member missionaries. This is part of the discussions…or at least it was for me…the first discussion was the First Vision and covered this explicitely.

    So Mormons have to admit that they actively teach that non LDS faiths are wrong. I know I did on my mission and on missionary splits.

    • Really? I never heard that missionaries preach that all other churches are wrong – and I had a couple of missionaries stay with me (through my roommate) (I know, it is not normal, it was a stopgap measure for two elders to stay with us, but rents skyrocketed to more than double in one month, no notice), so the pair would give me the lessons, and never once did they put down other religions. (They even had a pamphlet called HIS MANY MANSIONS, outlining different faiths in the world). Of course, ALL adherents to a particular faith believe theirs to be the true one. Catholics don’t think, ya know, the Presbyterian church over there is just as good as being Catholic; nor do the Presbyterians think the same. I lived in Provo as a non-member of the LDS church and was never mistreated, was made to feel welcomed, and not once did I hear a condemning word. I asked where the nearest Catholic parish was, wound up driving to Salt Lake City to the cathedral there. I can only attest that I wish more people of faith were as kind as the LDS folks I met in Provo, Fresno, and elsewhere. Not all are “saints” but there is the huge effort to guide people to a specific consciousness of loving goodness, and heck isn’t that supposed to be one of the precepts of a religion? There’s evidence of the rightness of a faith. Does it matter that all the “T”s aren’t crossed or the “I”s dotted? Look to the actions of the faithful, and judge by that standard.

  16. a religion is a believe as you all stated correctly and not a fact. so let people say whatever they want, if you like it or not. and don’t play it like your reliogions is better than any other ones as well. because when you research any one of them, they all have dirty laundry somewhere. religion will never escape its theorie ever. or is it even a conpiracy? shortly said believe and say what you want, but you gotta give everyone the same right. religion and fact. there is non.

  17. good or bad in religion, there is no such thing. how can a believe be bad? by someone saying whole manking should be killed because we are a virus is not a bad thought. stupid maybe but not bad in term of good or bad. and religion being overall good? but when you want to take it correctly non is. bashing other religions is regularly, no matter which one it is, is already wrong. to make out of a religion a financial institution is another thing. believe don’t beed no religion and religion doesn’t need a temple or church. when you believe in any way in jesus (when he did exist) you would just follow his beliefs. to me religion is just a curtain, people hide behind because they are not strong enough themselves to lead a respectfull live and rather follow a self proclaimed leader or even elect one like the catholic church, which is one of the biggest financial institutions in the world with thousands of subsidiaries. Common guys follow the leader or get up your **** and just respect everyone.

    p.e. Abortion is good and bad. it depends what the facts are. or is that a bad statement now in our eyes?

  18. *****, the more articles i read in here the more i come to the comclusion that to many peolpe get brainwashed in here. AGAIN-religion is just a believe. and means not knowing and not the oher way around. and it is also wrong to bind someones believe onto someones nose. lead a respectgul life and the rest will follow. see it that way. try to be an idol for every human person living on this planet without marketing yourself.

  19. What do you mean by “people get brainwashed in here????????”

  20. I’ve never encountered something like that sign before. Ive heard that stuff but never actually SEEN it. Do you know where the pic was taken? Is it on top of a van? It is totally meant to offend the LDS, and they are just trying to start something, because most LDS won’t engage in anti conversation. I can see this making people very upset. Personally I would LOVE to meet someone like this in person, I would love to see what kind of person would actually do this. It baffles me!

  21. I agree that sign is just irresponsible and sheer lunacy …

    There are better ways of trying to ‘help’ Mormons see the light :)

    Most LDS won’t enage in any conversation on History …. ( Its labelled Anti before I get to start ) ..

    I asked a church member about Joseph Smith translating with a hat and peep stone inside .. he said it was Anti ?

    In fact anything I mention which happens to be true is labelled as ‘Anti’.

    Why is that ?

  22. Most LDS don’t know a whole lot of this stuff so maybe he said it was anti because he thought it was. Engaging in anti is fruitless, and most want no part in any of it. It also depends on how you ask questions, there are sincere questions and there are questions that are obviously meant to upset. This sign is meant to upset those who do not normally engage. It’s meant to insult and stir up anger.

  23. I grew up as a mormon, and it’s true they are pretty much the same thing.

  24. In what way do you believe they are the same?

  25. But MAN do those mormons deserve it! Wish I could’ve been there when they burned the batcrap outta nauvoo.


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