The LDS Church has decided once again to change the temple recommend. In a dramatic move all temple recommend holders are being told to turn in their old recommends and get a new one with the added feature of a bar code. In one congregation I heard a member of the bishopric say that the brethren were doing this to increase safety and security of the members. I’m not sure how this move increases safety or security. I do see other applications for it though.
I’ve noticed on the Internet disgruntled members that scan their recommend and post it so that others can print off a copy and enter the temple (I’m not sure how many non-LDS are adventurous enough to actually do this). The move to add a bar code could be an attempt to stop these types of intrusions.
If a barcode is being scanned in at several temples simultaneously or in quick succession it would raise a red flag and that temple recommend could be tagged; refusing admittance to the owner until they go talk to their Bishop about the problem. I also think it could be a way for the LDS Church to keep tabs on who goes to the temple and how often.
Tell me what you think. Why is the LDS Church putting barcodes on the temple recommends?
Since my first recomendation and all the anti-mormon attempts (and success) to come into the temple, I knew the current system was weak, really really weak. With the bar code still is not a secure way, way no, but at least would create a database of each holder’s visit to the temple, as well as the option for the frontdesk person to review that member information with the church members world database (ward, stake, if married, age, name of the liders wich signed) so could be a little more easy to catch non-members or impersonating. Im not sure how the new recomendation is printed, but I would say that the info is held in the wards computer system wich is connected to the global church database, so then maybe the barcode will have the member id number. Im surprize they choose this old method though.
By: edain on August 20, 2007
at 7:52 pm
This whole Temple Recommend system is suspect to me .It all looks geared on getting a tithe out of members and obediance and control of them
Who really is worthy .Is there really anyone worthy ?
Paul Dunn was lying and living a lie while being a Temple Recommend .
The whole focus on endowing the deceased etc looks like an honorable waste of time to me .
I can sympathise for the cause but its a ceremony Joseph took from the Masons after probably swearing himself a blood oath not to reveal it !
The game must be up surely for this church
By: elder joseph on August 20, 2007
at 11:44 pm
I can totally see what makes you think that way EJ, but I don’t think it is that simple. Of course you’re right that Joseph took many ideas from the Mason ceromony. I really enjoyed John Dehlin’s interview with a Mason/Mormon that has reconciled what looks like a total rip off (in fact there are many things that are not in the ceremony that are found in the Mason ceremony).
It is a waste of time if it’s false. That much is true.
The game is certainly not up for the LDS Church. Every year 10s of thousands of people are baptized by the 50,000 plus missionaries out there. It appears that the momentum is finally evening out, but numbers are still climbing.
By: Jay on August 21, 2007
at 2:35 am
Well the numbers aren’t exactly climbing. How many stakes are there today compared to 5 years ago, there’s an increase but it’s not at all comparable to the “increase” in membership numbers.
I think you are right, the new recommend is a way to better track who is coming in and out and how often. IF a recommend is found online, then the barcode number can easily be canceled, but that’s not the main benefit.
By: Tim on August 21, 2007
at 6:04 am
I suppose it all depends on how you look at it. Every year there are a several hundred thousand converts added to the membership. I think the rate of increase is perhaps leveling off, but it is not insignificant.
I’ve heard the Church has stated (I don’t know if this is true) that the bar code information will not be used to check an individuals temple attendance. This may be true, but that temptation will be very strong. If it is ever found out that they are checking attendance at an individual level I think many members would be concerned and that could affect temple attendance which is the last thing they want to do.
By: Jay on August 22, 2007
at 5:07 pm
I think checking up on Temple attendance and sending a report to each recommend Holder on how many visits would be perfectly aceptable in Mormonism .This is a church which teaches ‘works’ and ‘obedience ‘ .
I see the constant pressure to get people to attend the temple as often as possible in normal Sunday talks .
Everything else is kept in check like church atendance , so why not Temple atendance , it is aferall the House Of The lord .
By: elder joseph on August 24, 2007
at 3:28 pm
I find the above comments sad. I’m a convert and I am so grateful for the temple (and especially my eternal family!) There are so many reasons I think the bar code is a good idea,
I love our temple workers, but many are up there in age and this will help them to weed out the fakes.
Sadly many people try to “expose” our temple ceremonies and this most definetly needs to stop.
If people do not agree with our church and our temples thats fine, but don’t mock what you don’t understand!
By: steffielynn on August 28, 2007
at 1:29 am
Why not just check ID? Look, if you’re thinking that they have some system checking to see what temples and how often, you’re right. But, it isn’t for security. A simple ID check would eliminate non-member visits to the temple.
“Oh, this doesn’t look like you..sorry, no handshakes today.”
Someone tell me how a barcode is going to stop fraud without ID ? Isn’t is pointless to flag someone AFTER the fact and go “oops”?
C’mon now, let’s be sensible. This is about keeping up with member.
Mine is not getting renewed, and I intend to turn in the old one with my letter of resignation.
By: allegory on August 28, 2007
at 3:56 pm
steffielynn
please look up
Helen Mar Kimball
on familysearch.org
please, it is a church run site, just do it, and pay careful attention to the dates. Please do it.
By: allegory on August 28, 2007
at 3:57 pm
I dont get it! Whats the thing with Helen Mar Kimball?
That she married a 21 yo man when she was 17?
or that he was a Mexican? or that they wait 3 days after her death ’till the burial?
Don’t get it…
By: edain on August 31, 2007
at 5:40 am
steffielynn
I’ve been attending church for two years and found constant pressure put on members to go to the Temple ….
How do you know you will have an eternal family ? Most members in my ward have families which are split .Sons and Daughters who have resigned from the church because they know its not true .
Then most ( all) I’ve spoken with doubt they will get into CK anyway ?
And what will we find in CK .Joseph Smith and Brigham Young with their many wives ! Joseph Smith sharing of 11 of his wives with their real husbands ?
By: elder joseph on August 31, 2007
at 11:53 am
edain
14 year old Helen Marr Kimball married 37 year old Joseph Smith because she was pressured by him and her father .
She was under the delusion that she had to marry Joseph Smith to ensure hers and her parents entrance into CK !
Its Joseph’s way of access to young chicks .
By: elder joseph on August 31, 2007
at 11:56 am
Where are you getting the information? Seriously, I want to look it up.
By: Cherryn on August 31, 2007
at 1:33 pm
looked up Helen Mar Kimbell on your listed site, and there is not reference to Joseph Smith???
By: Cherryn on August 31, 2007
at 1:36 pm
Do we understand the Eternal Marriage principle?
If we do then some questions:
- Why the secondaries wives could be re-asign if there was a fault in the husband, what happend if the husband then repented?
- Why their husband death they re-sealed?
- Why JS was sealed to old women (Fanny Young 56, Rhoda Richards 59,) if he was interested in “young chick”?
- Marrying a 14 yo was uncommon AND a crime in those days?
- Was polygamy against the law? the constitution? or just against the moral society?
- Why the Mormon church allow polyandry then and now?
- Nowadays, whats the state for those children born under the covenant, which parents now are divorced and sealed again to other partner, are they “sealed”? to who?
- What was the “rules” the husband observed between many wives?
- Why JS was sealed to married women? Why their husbands agree? Do they “consume” the marriage?
If we can respond tho these questions we will leave the Mormon polygamy aside…
The Mormon polygamy is a little more than the false idea of marrying many young women and put all in the same bed.
Personally I think polygamy is a great responsability issue, the society is not prepare for that, I dont think ever was, even in the OT Jacob cant control all of his wives, and nowadays our double standards society prefer the easy way to “have” many women but oppose polygamy.
Finally, If we disapprove polygamy we disagree with the Bible itself. Better say the Mormonism is wrong or false for the *unauthorized* practice of polygamy rather than because of the polygamy itself.
And the link for the wives of JS including Helen Mar (#26): http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org
By: edain on August 31, 2007
at 3:07 pm
Thanks for the link, very eye opening.
By: Cherryn on August 31, 2007
at 5:56 pm
Well E. Joseph I happen to believe in Eternal marriage, always have even before I joined the church. But I have no way of PROVING anything to you, It is just my personal belief, I don’t really know what exactly to tell you, I know we are asked to attend the Temple, some people may call this “pressure”, But I don’t feel that i’m in anyway pressured, it’s my choice to go or not and I actually love going, If people don’t want to go they shouldn’t. If people don’t understand something, they should ask questions.
By: steffielynn on August 31, 2007
at 9:22 pm
steffielynn,
You believed in eternal marriage even before you joined the church . So do most people including myself .My widowed mother won’t marry again because she expects to be with her husband when she dies .
But did you always believe in Polygamous marriages ??
This church is about polygamy being the norm and not monogomy .The founders declared polygamy as the order of heaven .Monogomy came about through the Law of the Land and threats from the government hence the polygamous marriages were temporarily suspended only ! When Jesus returns polygamy is the order of the day .
Widowed Mormon men are sealing their second or more earthly wives in Temple ready to call up two or more (polygamy) in the resurrection .
Have you seen how they practiced polygamy ?OLD Mormon men calling teens to be their wives or else damnation .
By: elder joseph on August 31, 2007
at 10:48 pm
I don’t know much about polygamy, It isn’t brought up at all in church, I would think if it was based on polygamy it would be dicussed. But it’s not. We follow the law of the land. Also I understand WHY polygamy was practiced 200 years or so ago. Things were much different then than they are now.
By: steffielynn on September 1, 2007
at 3:46 am
Steffie,
What is your understanding of why polygamy was practiced in JS/BY days?
This question should be added to Jay’s survey.
By: Bishop Rick on September 1, 2007
at 5:06 am
steffie ,
I’m not surprised its not brought up in church and its purposely avoided .
When I first started investigating , its one of the first things I asked about , but the response I got was wholly inadequate .In fact all the reasons or excuses given for it turned out to be false …
It would serve you well to look into it because its something you will most likely be commanded against your will to practice if the church really is true .
You could study Journal Of Discourses to read the reality of Polygamy where Brigham Young and others brags about it ( not surprisingly as they wielded Power and Authority to ‘call’ many young teens to marry and concieve whilst in their old age ) .And if a girl should refuse , then damnation was threatened upon her.
So when you tell family and friends about the great Celestial Kingdom hope , don’t forget to mention the most important and fundamental part of the church part where a man has many wives .
Maybe you could share with them when speaking about The Prophet Joseph Smith how he married other mens wives ( after sending the husband on a mission ) and then see if they feel the spirit ?
I too felt I recognised the teachings of the church until I looked at the real history and reality and I didn’t get baptised .
By: elder joseph on September 1, 2007
at 8:27 am
Well, like I’ve said before, I used to be anti myself. Then I DID learn the truth for myself and I joined the LDS church.
I wasn’t there in the 1800’s. I will never know what REALLY happened.
You say, “It would serve you well to look into it because its something you will most likely be commanded against your will to practice if the church really is true . ”
Well IF the church REALLY is true, and it is commanded then at that time I will deal with that situation. But assuming as you said that it IS infact true, then it wouldn’t be a hard disission to make.
I don’t know why you are on this polygamy kick. When I speak to my family and friends regarding the church I only speak of the happiness it has brought to myself and my family because that (to me) is all that matters. The other stuff is of absolutly NO importance to me. Like I said I used to be an ANTI
By: steffielynn on September 1, 2007
at 8:50 am
Rick
My conclusions of WHY it was practiced are my own conclusions. I can understand what it must have been like to be a single women at that time, I probably would have jumped on the polygamy wagon myself.
What I know from church statements was that is was commanded,(plain and simple)
I also know that B.Young said it was extremly difficult, and he at some point would have rather have died then have to do this.
There are always 2 sides to every story. I wasnt there, who am I to judge…..
By: steffielynn on September 1, 2007
at 9:01 am
steffielynn
You may have only read what the church wants you to read to make it look pallitable .
David Koresh could have said the same thing when he had sex with his followers in Waco Texas .I myself don’t like polygamy , but if it meant I could call teens and it was all approved and commanded by God then maybe I would think differently myself as an old man !
Perhaps read what Brigham Young thought about it when he realised he could simply ‘call’ girls .
http://www.realmormonhistory.com/polygamy.htm
By: elder joseph on September 1, 2007
at 9:17 am
Why dont you paste here the WHOLE discourse instead of just those fragments, maybe we are misreading WHY B.Y. said those things. Is easy to look evil if people cut my words to heard what they wants, CONTEXT, thats the better policy, otherwise its just another lame anti-mormon kick. For experience, I found some cases when the talk itself amaze me, but THIS B.Y. QUOTES ARENT THIS TIME. Tell me if you dont have the whole text, maybe I can paste here the context of WHY B.Y. SAID THAT…
By: edain on September 3, 2007
at 3:46 am
edain
They are easy to check .Here are the J.O.D’s online
http://journalofdiscourses.org/
I’ve tried checking the deseret news quotes with the webmaster at SHIELDS ( Mormon scholarly website which helps with difficult questions etc ) , but he chooses to ignore me ….typical of religious cults …. It was the same with The Watchtower Society of Jehovahs Witnesses .
The quotes are very clear to me and I’ve checked some before , Good luck with finding a context but what do you think you will find ?
if you read through at random , You’ll find that Adam is God , Mary was ******* by a an embodied God ( Adam ) to concieve Jesus and alot of other dangerous and totally stupid things from the ‘Prophet’ Brigham Young .
By: elder joseph on September 3, 2007
at 10:26 pm
I have my own, and have read them. And YES the quotes are clear (in the sense of been well copied) but for example the part of B.Y. you implied that the MACHO part of BY is shown with his bold statement that he “could simply ‘call’ girls”.
realmormonhistory quote:
““I could prove to this congregation that I AM YOUNG; for I could FIND MORE GIRLS WHO WOULD CHOOSE ME FOR A HUSBAND THAN CAN ANY OF THE YOUNG MEN.””
JoD with some context:
Talking about a Thomas Marsh who said he suffer as in the Purgatory when he was out of the church and now is trying to come back:
“He has told you that he is an old man. Do you think that I am an old man? I could prove to this congregation that I am young; for I could find more girls who would choose me for a husband than can any of the young men.
Brother Thomas considers himself very aged and infirm, and you can see that he is, brethren and sisters. What is the cause of it? He left the Gospel of salvation. What do you think the difference is between his age and mine? One year and seven months to a day; and he is one year, seven months, and fourteen days older than brother Heber C. Kimball.
“Mormonism” keeps men and women young and handsome; and when they are full of the Spirit of God, there are none of them but what will have a glow upon their countenances; and that is what makes you and me young; for the Spirit of God is with us and within us.”
Journal of Discourses, Vol.5, p.211, Brigham Young, September 6th, 1857
So, the difference? BY is doing 3 points: The mormonism (rather say the Holy Spirit in the church) keep the members young, handsome and healthy and, hence, he (or any mormon) can find more people attracted to them than any non-mormon could, AND cheer up T. Marsh to feel “young” and feel comfortable in his coming back to the church.
“Dangerous and totally stupid things”???
At this point Im not argue with you about this topic, but DOES ANY CHRISTIAN CHURCH GIVE AN EXPLANATION ABOUT THE NATURE OF GOD THAT IT IS NOT?
My research is that they rather believe in a unknown god (even when they have a statement if you ask more the final answer is nobody knows or that thats the Mystery), because if Christ said that to know God is to have eternal life, if someone cant teach about the nature of Him then they dont know Him. Talk about Him is not KNOW HIM. I rather stick in the crazy ideas of Young, at least give you more to think about, and YES I have researched a lot about that topic. But not for that Im saying thats the true.
By: edain on September 4, 2007
at 2:06 pm
Thanks for the putting the quote in context edain
By: Jay on September 4, 2007
at 4:24 pm
Welcome, that site have good material, but they aren’t honest, if you really care for “reveal” mormonism, then do it right. Most of the quotes there are without the context (notice I didnt say “ALL”). Misquoting is take people for moron that will read and just believe.
By: edain on September 4, 2007
at 5:55 pm
edain,
I don’t think your putting the quote “in context” changes the mindset behind the statement. BY was clearly full of himself regardless of his intention to cheer up T Marsh.
The statement can only mean one of 2 things.
Either BY is by far more handsome and desirable than the young men of his day, making young women desire to be his 80th wife for the next 10 years before he dies of old age.
or
BY is using his office to pressure or influence these young women in some fashion.
I have seen pictures of BY and I have read many of his discourses (completely). He didn’t appear young, handsome or desirable, so I have to assume it was his position in the church that had the greater influence.
By: Bishop Rick on September 4, 2007
at 6:38 pm
the whole statement is drivvle ..
Mormonism keeps you young via the spirit ?
Brigham Young did ‘call’ girls to marriage , my missionary told me , it was a calling .
He wasn’t so good looking that lots of girls were queueing up to marry him , thats sheer arrogance typical of Mormon Priesthood hallucinations.
How else are you going to get young girls to marry Old men except use your power and authority as prophet .
The quote is a quote and its pathetic .
Thomas Marsh being out of the church is like purgatory and he wants to come back and looks old ? Its laughable .
There are lots of ex mormons who are out and will never come back and many yet to come out of it .
By: elder joseph on September 4, 2007
at 6:48 pm
Church membership has been stagnant in North America for a few years now. I’ve confirmed this with several LDS leaders. Ex-mormons are getting smarter and more vocal. Have you ever stopped to think for just a moment that geez maybe these guys aren’t actually being “tricked” by Satan. Maybe they actually have some evidence to back up what they claim. Almost everyone in my family has left mormonism. The only two family members that remain even remotely active are my dad and brother mostly because their crazed wives would leave them if they left the LDS church.
By: Warren on January 15, 2008
at 6:24 am
Warren as with all evidence there is more than one way to look at it. Any rational person would have to admit that there is plenty of evidence to show many of the anti-Mormon claims are true. However, there is always more than one way to look at something. There seems to almost always be a rational answer to anti-Mormon claims. The question is, do those answers satisfy the reader?
Some of them satisfy me, but others do not. No answer will satisfy an anti-Mormon except one that proves the LDS Church false. Those are the type of people I listen to, but take with a grain of salt. I’m much more willing to listen to someone critical of the LDS faith, but willing to sincerely admit that their interpretation of history could be wrong.
By: Jay on January 15, 2008
at 3:32 pm