Posted by: Jay | August 27, 2007

Denied a voice.

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This week I called the Sunday school teacher and politely let him know that my wife and I were very uncomfortable with what was said in class the week before (i.e. blacks seed of Cain/Ham) by some of the class members. It was then that he told me he also was uncomfortable with the comment, but didn’t know what to say. I began to tell him about Elijah Abel, David O. McKay’s statement and other points about the history of the issue. He asked me if I would use 5-10 mins. of class time to let others in the class know the information. I of course agreed.

I decided to share three statements. President Hinckley’s most recent, Bruce R. McConkie’s (1978), David O. Mckay’s (as quoted in Greg Prince’s book) and perhaps share that there were black members that held the priesthood before and during the priesthood ban.

Sunday morning I received a call from the Sunday school teacher. Asking me to limit what I shared to just a few quotes and then he would tell anyone that had further comments or questions to go talk to the Bishop, at which point he would start the current lesson. I said that would be fine. I could tell he was having second thoughts about allowing me to share this information. After an hour passed I called him back to share with him exactly what I would say. I wanted him to know I wasn’t going to go overboard with it. He assured me that he was not afraid of what I might say and that everything was fine. Relieved, I went to church with my family.

When Sacrament was over, I went into the Sunday school class and sat down waiting for my opportunity to read the statements of past leaders. I decided to use only two; Bruce R. McConkie’s and David O. Mckay’s quote from Greg Prince’s book because I didn’t want to take up too much of class time and I thought these would be sufficient. Just as everyone was getting settled in, the Sunday school teacher came up to me visibly nervous. He placed his hand on my shoulder as I sat. I could feel a slight tremble as he told me that the bishopric did not want anything said further on the subject. He was very apologetic that I would not be able to share what I had with the class. I was saddened that I would not be given the chance to correct false doctrine that was shared before and didn’t understand why the bishopric would have a problem with it.

During the lesson my daughter began to cry, so I took her out into the hallway. It was there that I ran into a member of the bishopric. He said he had been looking for me because he wanted to extend a calling. We went into an empty room where he extended a calling to me. After I accepted, I asked him about why I was not allowed to share information that would have corrected the statements of the preceeding week. He said that the bishopric felt that it would just stir up more problems and they essentially decided to let “sleeping dogs lie”. I told him I was afraid that because those that said the comments were so emphatic about it being doctrine and that they had tried to prove their statements using the standard works, that some members may have walk away thinking that their views were in fact doctrine of the Church.

He then asked me if I knew anyone that was offended by the statements. I felt that if anyone wasn’t offended that would be more of a problem than if someone was. The only other people that I knew of were my wife and the teacher, but that was because I had spoken with them. He then asked me who said the comments. I told him that I didn’t know. It was at least two and possibly three people that made separate comments (my wife wouldn’t tell me who it was). We left the room with him saying that he’d talk about it with the bishopric again. I let him know that I didn’t have to be the one that corrected the problem. I would be perfectly happy if it was one of them or the teacher that addressed the issue, but that I felt someone should say something. I left not feeling very confident that anything else would be done to correct the problem.

It mystifies me why these comments would be left alone. I’m caught in the middle of doing what I feel is right and obeying my leaders. By letting it go the bishop is by default saying it’s ok to repeat false doctrine. I wonder if I started declaring doctrine that was false in church meetings if they would do anything about it. It is possible that they will say something next week about it, but I’m not holding my breath. If nothing is done I may go to the Stake President.

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Responses

  1. That is very interesting! I find in my ward that the bishopric tends to try to make everyone happy and not ruffle any feathers. It drives me nuts sometimes! (I’m a recent convert and I ask a lot of questions, and most answers I get are wish washy) I think they are afraid they will scare me off or something. (I guess lots of people leave because they get offended so members are very careful not to offend)

    I personally think you are doing the right thing. In my opinion this topic (and many others) SHOULD be clarified in EVERY ward, branch etc.

    I have a friend who was interested in the church until she read stuff about the seed of cain being cursed (her husband is black) and I didn’t know what to tell her.

    Good luck

  2. steffielynn,
    Thank you for the encouragement. I hope that as a recent convert you don’t get your feathers ruffled when people don’t give you straight forward answers. I believe they do this because they don’t know how to address difficult issues when they are brought up. I think the Church is improving, but there is still plenty of room for growth.

    Your friend’s reaction is a sad consequence of not being informed about LDS history. There are many black members that have learned about it and are able to reconcile that fact that prophets make mistakes. I hope some time in the future she will give it another chance.

  3. Jay,
    No they don’t ruffle my feathers, I try to explain to them that they CAN’T and they don’t need to be so careful about what they say around me! I know for my self that the church is true! They couldn’t scare me away if they wanted to :)

    As for my friend I told her I would look into it, She’s an awesome person and I think she’ll come around once she learns the truth :)

    I haven’t had a whole lot of time, but I plan on reading through more of your posts.

  4. The truth is that religion is man-made.

  5. Jay, you’re doing the right thing in trying to correct this blatant racism.

    I’m not even a member and I’m discouraged that you were not allowed to correct this sinful teaching and attitude. Keep after it. Your Bishopric is acting cowardly in my opinion.

    If false doctrine can’t be corrected in a church meeting, where exactly is it going to happen?

  6. steffielynn,
    You should know that for more than a year I have been struggling with hard facts in LDS history. It has affected my testimony eventhough I had recieved an answer and knew that it was true.

    My past and current posts are an attempt by me to understand why these things happened. I’m still in the mist of that struggle. So if I seem too harsh against the Church, just know that I’m seeking truth. I don’t have anything against the LDS Church as a whole. I think it is great. I love many things about it.

    The testimony I had a year ago was one of the heart. I now seek to reconcile my heart with my mind by studying it out. This study produces periods of frustration that I sometime express here because my other options to express it are limited. I know that truth will eventually win the day and if the Church is true, as I want to believe it is, I do not have to fear history.

    Rick,
    That is certainly a valid opinion. I’ve just had too many spiritual experiences to think all religion is hog wash.

    Dando,
    Thanks, I’m going to wait to see if anything is stated in the next couple of weeks in sacrament or priesthood before pushing the issue more. Because of the new temple recomends I will have the oportunity to talk to the Stake President soon. I think that will be a good time to bring up what happened. My only fear is that the bishopric will be unhappy if I go over their heads, but I’m willing to live with that if I must.

  7. Jay,
    I understand what this blog is for and I totally get what you are doing!
    I know I have been leaving a lot of comments the last 2 days but it’s because I LIKE your blog.I don’t want you to think i’m judging you. I think what you are doing is right! I don’t know you, but I feel your sincerity. I hope you don’t mind me tossing my 2 cents in :)

    Rick,
    I’m sorry you feel that way, for me I know with all my heart that we have a Father in Heaven who loves us. I have no proof, just Faith. This is enough for me!

  8. I think people can have religious experiences. I just do not believe in revealed religion. I believe in a creator, but not as described by man.

    Simply too many revealed religions claiming divine origination. The LDS church is no exception. Many teachings of the LDS church make sense on the surface, but break down under closer scrutiny.

    I used to believe all of the LDS teachings. Now I hardly believe any at all as they have broken down.

    To stay on topic, as rediculous as the curse of Ham / Negro doctrine sounds (which BTW, I was taught as a Baptist before I joined the LDS church) is really no different than the supposed curse on the Lamanites.

    Think about it.

  9. And it’s just as incorrect and racist for a Baptist to say it as Mormon

  10. It’s interesting to note that many Protestant churches in the 19th century taught the curse of Cain and Ham to justify slavery. Mormons did not invent these two teachings. I tend to believe that they entered the LDS church tradition because so many of the people that joined were coming from Protestant churches that taught it. So naturally they brought it along. I’m not sure when the protestant churches began to drop the teaching. Maybe someone else knows. I do know that today there are some racist groups that still use the curse of Cain to justify their racism.

    Now valiancy in the pre-existence is uniquely LDS. It is one of the most prominent excuses proposed for the priesthood ban. Orson Hyde first proposed it in 1845. Unfortunately, it is still being perpetuated today because there is no other logical explanation for the ban.

  11. Tim,

    I agree. False doctrine is false doctrine regardless of the source.

  12. There was an interesting comment on my blog about the avoidance of controversy within the LDS Church

    http://ldstalk.wordpress.com/2007/08/28/wow-we-can-get-ugly/#comment-1787

  13. steffielynn

    You said

    I know with all my heart that we have a Father in Heaven who loves us. I have no proof, just Faith. This is enough for me!

    But what is that supposed to mean ?

    1 We have to join your church ?
    2 We have to PAY alot of money for a reward in the afterlife?
    3 We have to obey Mormon Leaders ?
    4 We have to convert others as its commanded?
    5 Only Mormon men are righteous husbands ?

    So what is the purpose of your statement ?

  14. steffielynn

    forgot

    6 We have to believe in Nephite and Lamenite civilisatuions which didn’t exist ?
    7 We have to believe that Joseph Smith marrying other mens wives is from God ?
    8 We have to believe Brigham Young was a prophet of God even thouigh he taugh Adam is God and that Mary was ******* by Adam (our father and God) to concieve Jesus ?
    9 We have to believe Gordon Hinckley is a prophet even though he lies on national Tv and media ?
    10 You really trust your emotions over facts and common sense and integrity ?

  15. Elder Joseph

    1. When do you claim the Gordon B Hinkley lied on national television? Serious question of genuine interest.

    2. I do not recall Adam ever being conveyed as a “GOD” nor the it was adam who came to get Mary pregnant, agaon interested to know where you are getting these little jewels.

    3. I was never taught that by paying a tithe that we will receive any reward in the afterlife, it is more part of the whole process. Yes we pay a tithe, but we dont pay for weddings, or use of the buildings on sundays, or any of the other many activities that go on there… the tithing thing never really bothered me. It should probably be on more of a voluntary basis, and I am sure many mormons will claim that they pay a tithe willingly, however, dont pay your tithing and try to get your T.R. so not going to happen.

    I am pretty sceptical to everything at the moment, feeling very disolusioned with the whole idea of mormonism, but I still would like some factual info.

  16. E. Joseph,
    My statement is extremly simple. you are looking way to much into it. These are MY beliefs, you are free to have your own, YOU do not HAVE to believe as I do. I believe, I have faith.

    And I’m not really sure where you get your “facts” from. But yes I actually do trust my feelings. My common sence and Integrity go right along with my beliefs and my faith.

    “Truly understood and properly practiced, faith is one of the grand and glorious powers of eternity. It is a force powerful beyond our comprehension. “Through faith … the worlds were framed by the word of God.” Through faith, waters are parted, the sick healed, the wicked silenced, and salvation made possible.
    Our faith is the foundation upon which all our spiritual lives rest. It should be the most important resource of our lives. Faith is not so much something we believe; faith is something we live.”

    –Joseph B. Wirthlin, “Shall He Find Faith on the Earth?”, Ensign November 2002, 82

  17. No where in church writings will you find that Adam conceived Jesus with Mary.

    What EJ is referring to is the fact that the LDS church teaches that HF conceived with Mary, and he is coupling that with BY teachings that Adam is God or HF.

    Therefore, what he is saying is that if you believe the words of LDS prophets, then it is reasonable to conclude that Adam conceived with Mary to create Jesus.

    Regarding GBH lying on national TV, EJ is referring to interviews (which I watched live) where GBH denied that man can become a God. I remember being confused by that statement.

    Then I heard GBH (again live) during the next general conference after that interview, where he basically apologized to the church for telling (in his words) a little white lie. It really was not much of an apology though, as he told it in a comical grandfatherly way that simply caused a lot of laughter by the congregation.

  18. Cherryn

    Bishop Rick has answered your enquiry on 1 and 2 for me , so thankyou for that …

    Gordon Hinckley also lied about Polygamy when Interviewed with Larry King. In fact the church has a whole history of lying Prophets….

    http://home.teleport.com/~packham/lying.htm

    no 3 – about tithing ?

    I am taught that tithing brings blessings , numerous articles in Ensign magazines and church talks say that if you pay tithing you will be better off financially and materialistically .. Examples are ,

    1 sudden wage increases as a result of paying tithe ….. You would have got the increase anyway , how do you explain the fact that non member/non tithe payers got the same increase as employess.

    2 Refunds on overpaid utility bills ? I heard this one in church and it was laughable .If you have overpaid utility bills then you will get a refund out of common sense and not a result of tithe paying .

    3 early repayment of overpaid Tax after paying Tithe ? another nonsense basically .

    Tithing is great if you believe the church and wish to support its growth and the blessings are a well funded church , but it is a real sacrifice to give up 10% minimum of your scarce income .

    But I am taught that non tithe payers will be burned by Jesus Christ , its in D&C 64:23 and the gospel principles book (page 210) also .

  19. steffielynn

    I love your enthusiasm for real faith .I have real faith too .

    But I don’t have faith in the claims of the Mormon Church though .Its led by liars unfortunately who have preyed on the back of good people like yourself.

    If you lived in Joseph Smiths time and he found you attractive , he would have secretly called you to marry him ( irrespective of whether you had a husband or not ) . Would you have had faith to marry 60 year old Brigham Young at your young age ? Or give your 15 year old daughter to him to concieve with ?

    If you want to know what the church was originally like then just look at Warren Jeffs and the Fundamental Church of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints today .They uphold your scripture D&C 132 .

  20. Elder Joseph…

    Yes I do remember that part actually, not that you mentioned it… I actaully recall my sister saying to me, while she was putting her money in the envelope…

    “this is my fire insurance” I was obviously confused and she added…

    “Yes cherryn, those members that pay a full tithe will be lifed up when the earth is cleansed by fire”

    I had not thought about that little tid bit in a long long time, so thanks for helping drag it out.

    I am having a huge delema about my personal delusions right now, and figuring out what I really feel, and believe, and what I believe because that is what I have been told my whole life.

    Seriously, I went and watched a conference NOW… after I have started researching all the lies and deception that very clearly perpetratate by the higher ranking officials… well it is a different ball game altogether.

    I feel a little up in the air really… like all my life I have believed on thing, and now I have opened my eyes and there is just no possible way to go back to the ignorant state.

    THe other grand thing I have found is this…

    When given the truth and the fact, a devout mormon can and will rationalize away absolutely everything that does not uphold and sustain their faith! I have tried it on multiple friends and family memebers… I am so astounded by it!

  21. JAY…

    I would like a thread to discuss the changes in the Temple ceremony… from the time of Jseph Smith to now.

    Or at least a point in the right direction as to where I could get my hands on some informaaion regarding that.

  22. Cherryn

    I can understand your dilemma , more and more church members go through this and there is a good reason why lots are resigning .

    Many members are resigning and taking their kids out with them .They wouldn’t do this if there wasn’t something wrong about the church .Lots have been faithfull Temple Recommend devout members and for many years .

    The important thing is honesty ….. You need to find out who is being Honest .. Is it the church ? ort is it those who have left ?

    The best way is to study it out for yourself . Research , ask questions etc …. If anyone is discouraging you from asking questions then I’d be concerned .

    A good place to start is here by church member John Dehlin …

    http://www.mormonstories.org/whytheyleave/

  23. Elder Joseph,

    Thank you, I am reading a couple of books right now… well three, Mormon America, No Man knows my History and another called Truth from a mormon perspective.

    I guess the thing I am the most concerned about it that there are just SO MANY aspects of the church that dont add up.

    I have been a member my whole life, married in the temple, and held a recommend for the last 5 years.

    When I first went to the temple, I came out terribly affraid that I was part if a cult, it was as if the bottom had dropped out of my word… I dod not feel go in there at all and the overwhelming response to my questions and concerns…

    “just keep going until it does feel right”

    Well if a man came into my room and raped me, it would start to feel right and normal after a while as well.

    Well NO… I have never felt right about the temple and what goes on in there. AND no one wants to answer the questions, becasue it is the temple and it is sacred!
    AND when you actaully nail someone down in the temple and ask then questions, there is NO ANSWERS.

    I will never forget sitting in the last room, and leaning to a very elderly woman beside me and quietly asking her my question. She looked at me blankly and said

    “I dont know, I have never thought about it before and it does not seem nessesary to know the answer.”

    Then there is the resoponse of

    “well lets get the stake pres, and temple pres together and you can ask them all your questions”

    And I feel like I would be bullied passively into submission in that sort of situation.

    It seems to me like there is a lot of passive agression in the church, like no one wants to outright say anything to rock the boat…

    I feel very frustrated.

    Thanks for the link though. I will check it out right now.

  24. Sorry I was typing FAST… it should say

    :….I DID NOT FEEL GOOD IN THERE AT ALL…

    Sorry

  25. Cherryn,
    I can vouch for John Dehlin’s site (see the link on this blog to mormon stories) that EJ recommended. It is very good. He has many interviews with people that talk about these tough subjects. Also, check out Mormon miscellaneous and FAIR LDS (also links on this blog). John’s site is probably the most impartial of them all.

    I only add a caution that you have patience as you investigate. Don’t take any one person’s word as the definitive answer. There are several ways of looking at history and you are sure to find more anti-Mormon interpretations than pro-LDS. The reason is that there are many fewer defenders of the Church than attackers. Make sure you balance the anti with the pro and you may find the truth inbetween somewhere.

    Life is full of grey areas. It is not as simple as “the Church lied”. I am struggling with several things too, but I have been able to find answers after searching for months. Remember to be patient.

  26. Jay,

    Thank you, that is fair, and sound advice. I filly intend to explore for myself, and to find some peace and understanding with what ever it is that I find.

    SOme things however can not be explained away, those are the areas of most concern to me. AND it seems that the two prophets that have always been portrayed one…well turns out, they were a whole other…

    It is my own fault for not investigating more fully, but seeing as I was born into the church, baptised when 8, married inthe temple, three kids, never felt lied to in the past, why should I question what is fed to me from the get go???

    SO yes right now I feel very hurt, very angry and at the same time very curious. SO the searching goes on…

  27. Cherryn,
    My story is very similar. I was also born in the Church, married in the Temple and have 3 beautiful children. I started to find out about the many controversies in LDS Church history over a year ago. My low point was last December. It is a horrible feeling. I felt betrayed and lied to. I’m finding out that history is much more complex than I ever imagined. Interpreting it is even more complex.

    I have found many satisfactory answers and some that are not very satisfactory. My hope is that with time I will come to peace with the few things I do not understand. Until then I can only think, who can blame anyone for doubting? I know that truth will win out in the end, so I don’t have any fear of what I might find or have found.

    My testimony has changed dramatically from a year and a half ago. Many assumptions I had made about the Church were false. I have had to reevaluate what I accept and don’t accept as doctrine and what I think a prophet really is and does. In some ways I really miss the child like faith I once had.

    What are you struggling with right now? Since I have been through a lot of different issues perhaps I could point you to some articles or podcasts that might help. Let me know if you want any help.

  28. Cherryn

    Jay is correct and please do your own research .I am not a member but have been investigating and attending for two years ….

    I have decided not to get baptised .. I don’t get answers to the difficult aspects , but excuses instead .

    Its clear to me that the BofM is not historical whatsoever and that Joseph Smith was a con man from the beginning …

    I can’t risk my eternal destiny believing in his version of Jesus Christ . A vesrson where Jesus demands polygamous marriages of teens to old men ..Its too ridiculous to even comprehend for me .

    A version where the only means to be with God in a higher place is through marrying Joseph Smith ? as if Jesus atonement wasn’t enough ?

    scary !

    these are just a couple of things , add to that a dozens more and the only thing which makes sense to me is that its noit what it claims to be .

    Please keep a faith in God and Jesus ….. seperate from the LDS church ……

  29. Elder Joseph you sound more like a hard core anti then an “investigator”. It seems like you are just posing to get YOUR point acrossed????? I’m not trying to be rude but….. I’m just not seeing even a hint of sincerity

    If the LDS church isn’t true, then it is of the devil and not from God. But only good things come from God, and there have been so many wonderful things that have come into my life because of the gospel. I know it’s true, My life and my heart have changed.

    If I were to be on my death bed and told that it was all a lie I would not have any regrets. I would not wish to have lived my life any differently,

    Will I at my end meet my maker????? I know that I will and I know that I have have made the right decision to join the LDS church

    You all will have to find out for yourself, i’m not here to preach to anyone, i’m just here to offer my point of view.

  30. steffielynn

    I appreciate your comment .. but what is Anti ?

    If I am anti Mormon because I don’t believe the church is the only true church on the earth but in fact the opposite .Then this means you are Anti Christian because you don’t believe the other Christian Churches are telling the truth .

    Are you Anti Christian then ?

    Yes I have a desire to tell the truth of the church and its history and how things taught to me by missionaries is in fact false.

    I have knocked with the missionaries , I have seen myself the tactics used to try and palm off a BofM on people . All their kindness is just for one thing only……… to get people in the cult .The missionaries couldn’t care less otherwise .

    I too am happy the way I live my life ( without having to be dishonest and dupe people into the LDS church by a deceptive whitewashed version of events ).

    You say you have no regrets ? I heard this all the time from JW’s trying to convert me until they realise they had been lied to , then it all changed ..

    You are enjoying a honeymoon period for the church which you need to be grateful for the Law of the land for this…

    Would the church have tansformed your life and heart the same under Brigham Young calling Teens to marry him against their will and threatened with Gods Wrath if they didn’t ?

    Would that have made you happy ?

    Or what about Joseph Smith taking your young daughter to marry because it was necessary for your eternal well being ? Or marrying you despite the fact you have a living husband .Would that have made your heart swell , feel the spirit ?

    You have the Law of The Land to thank for clamping down on this oppressive Arrogant regime and not The Church .

  31. You are stuck on a principle not taught by the church, and something that you do not know first hand about. It really doesn’t make for a good argument.

    Anti is alive and kickin in the church, it’s something I see and deal with daily. I would not consider myself anti christian because I consider myself to be a christian (in the sence that I believe in Christ.) Also I don’t go around saying that any other church “lied”. Other churches and members believe differently than I do. I’m ok with that, infact i’m happy for ANYONE who has a relationship with the Father and with Christ!!!! I dont think it is right for ANYONE to judge someone elses faith based on half truthes or opinions.

    You come off very strong. Most who oppose our church use the same lines you do. I’m not trying to attack you personally, it’s just smellin a little funky from over here.

    You say I am lucky that I have the law of the land, but I also have choice. If things were going on as YOU say they were, I most definetly would not HAVE to follow along, I think you should give the early members more credit. I have read from the history and from journals of things happening in that day. (not JUST the LDS versions!) They were not mindless followers who did whatever anyone said. They were freakin amazing!
    I don’t know what I would do in the situations they were in, they were tarred and feathered, beaten, hung, humiliated, pushed out of their own homes, raped, killed, they watched there loved ones suffer, they walked hundreds of miles with many sick and dying. They had a strengh that I will never know. To say as you do that all these things happened the way they did, is OPINION, not fact. Yes there was polygamy, but were these people forced? I do not believe that they were. Women in that day were unable to support themselves like they are now, they needed help.

    E. joseph I don’t anger easily, but talking the way you do about these people disturbs me. The things you accuse are possible but YOU were not there. You cannot say you know this as fact.

    I really and truely would have no regrets, if at the end (Lets pretend my end waas today) there was nothing. For the last 2 years I have loved and cherished my family, I have been honest and kind, I have helped my neighbors, I have forgiven my enemies, I have lived a good life. I would not think to myself, “dang I wish I would have spent less time with my family, drank more, and been more selfish.”

    So could this be all a lie?????? YES, it could be. I did not know Joseph Smith or Brigham Young. The bible says you shall know them by their fruits. The fruits of these prophets are the LDS members (and church) today. These members are by far the most amazing people I have ever met in my life. They care for myself and my family, they are good and honest and they try there best to follow the Lord. The church has young missionaries who take 2 years out of there lives to share the gospel with those like myself who are lost and hurting. Who sacrifice fun and all the earthly stuff to serve the Lord. These people amaze me and humble me. This is the friut of Joseph Smith, Brigham Young and Gordon B Hinkley, and they are GOOD!!!!!!!!!!

  32. Steffie,

    EJ does come across harsh, but the things he mentions regarding polygamy are documented. The LDS church does a lot of good for a lot of people. That doesn’t make it true, nor does the fact that other organizations (religious or otherwise) that do just as much good (or more in some cases) make the LDS church false.

    Personally, I don’t believe that the LDS church is the only true church on the earth. I don’t think GBH is a prophet. I think he is the president of the LDS church, who just happened to have the most tenure when the last president died. But that doesn’t make him a bad person.

    Despite the way I feel about the church, I still choose to attend and participate because of the good side of the church.

    What I have a problem with is all the false claims of sole authority, sole conduit to HF, sole means of achieving the fullness of the gospel, etc. etc.

    If the church would just come clean with its history, and lose the sole authority claims, I would probably be one of its strongest supporters/members.

  33. I always say: Are you a Cristian or just another Anti-Mormon?

    Pay attention to this: How many sites and organized proselytism is made against the Mormons for another so called “Christians”? How many for the Mormons against them?

    Mormons usually are defending themselves you just can think of them as the early Christians that were persecuted because their teaches were DIFFERENT than the majority… If they like to say Mormons aren’t Christians, then don’t let them feel like them, if they are the TRUE Christians then behave like one. They can catch more flies with honey than with bitterness…

    Finally, ANTI stand for AGAINST, if people dont believe the mormon doctrine OK, dont need to but dont attack the people. Dont accept, dont agree Its Ok, but the ANTIs usually live for fight against the mormons. Is totally contradictory to fight against the mormons because one doesnt agree with them and try to pull them into the right place using ANTI-Christians methods, full of anger and hate, being dishonest and lying (sometimes not at purpose, just misinformed) being respectfully. I cant imaging Jesus as an ANTI hurting people’s feelings and what is sacred to them.

  34. Sorry Jay, I meant to tell you that I support you. As I said somewhere else, the better way the church can apologize is making a better effort to clean those false doctrines from the member’s minds (and tongues).

    Hope you could be listen about that subject in your ward.

  35. edain,

    The number of sites for or against mormonism has absolutely no bearing. The claims and teachings of the church are either true or they are false. The number of people that believe one way or another cannot change this.

    What I know is all the doctrine that I have been taught by missionaries, bishops, stake presidents, and ward members, during my 20-something years as a member, is being proven false, and only now the church is saying that those things were never doctrine, when they can be found in numerous talks by GAs.

    To me, calling something “Official Doctrine” is merely semantics and a cop out. If something is taught to the members by GAs, it should be considered doctrine. If not, we can’t believe anything the GAs say or ever said that isn’t cannonized.

    The church is its own worse enemy.

  36. steffielyn

    Yes I do come across harsh and I am , but so was Joseph Smith , Brigham Young and many others and you are ok with them !

    I can’t stand Brigham Young or Joseph Smith , they are the reason not to join.

    Most members today are fine , but so are the born agains and the christadelphians and the JW’s I’ve met …

    you said “Also I don’t go around saying that any other church “lied”.

    the whole Mormon church is based on the principle that all others are wrong and corrupt and their creeds an abomination , so you don’t need to go round saying that , because its in your scriptures that other churches are based on a lie…

    you said “The bible says you shall know them by their fruits. ”

    This church is not the fruits of Joseph Smith or Brigham Young ,It has evolved over time and adapted to society and culture ..
    The fruits of Joseph Smith and BrighamYoung are still evident in the Polygamist LDS groups in America.

    Yes I know how the Mormons were attacked and beaten etc and its tragic . But so were the Jews in Germany and throughout history , does that make them the only true church also ..
    what about David Koresh’s compound/followers attacked by the FBI …these members went through an inferno .Such faith they had ?

    Some cause of the attacks on Mormons were influenced /provoked by Joseph Smiths arrogant statements and threats of domination wherever they settled …

    It seems to me that you have been caught at a hard time in your life and they’ve influenced you to make a dramatic change for the better in your life and be friended you . So thats great it works for you because of your circumstance , but it doesn’t make it the only true church on the face of the earth when it isn’t .I hear the same from JW’s when I disagree with them , how the church has transformed them ..

    This is the gripe I have and not with your good works …

    Mormonism doesn’t allow for other churches being fine , I am reminded weekly how other churches have no authority whatsoever and no hope of returning to Heavenly Father .I wonder do you listen in church lessons or just socialise like many in our ward .

    Mormonism is a trap to rigidly conform with the Priesthood Power and Authority . It entraps weak and vulnerable people .

  37. EJ,
    I disagree. There are many strong people in the LDS Church. They are no more or less intelligent than any other people religious or not. I don’t think that people are brought into the Church just because they are having hard times and are taken advantage of. However, I do think that the LDS Church needs to do a better job of educating its members about its history.

    Stephielynn knew about much of the controversy before becoming a member. Probably more than most investigators and despite that was able to receive a witness of the Holy Ghost. I think that says a lot. Her testimony is just as powerful as your denial of the LDS faith.

  38. Jay,

    Thank you for your interest in what is concerning me, I would prefer possibly talking with you in a format unlike this one… maybe could I have your direct email address… or you can email me…
    Cherryn@cherrynsImpressions.com

  39. Margaret Thaler Singer, Ph.D.

    After exiting a cult, an individual may experience a period of intense and often conflicting emotions. She or he may feel relief to be out of the group, but also may feel grief over the loss of positive elements in the cult, such as friendships, a sense of belonging or the feeling of personal worth generated by the group’s stated ideals or mission.

  40. For some reason I cant post the rest of this comment

  41. The emotional upheaval of the period is often characterized by “post-cult trauma syndrome”:

    spontaneous crying
    sense of loss
    depression & suicidal thoughts
    fear that not obeying the cult’s wishes will result in God’s wrath or loss of salvation

  42. I will get it all on, I promise… I it is very important stuff!

  43. The period of exiting from a cult is usually a traumatic experience and, like any great change in a person’s life, involves passing through stages of accommodation to the change:

    Disbelief/denial: “This can’t be happening. It couldn’t have been that bad.”
    Anger/hostility: “How could they/I be so wrong?” (hate feelings)
    Self-pity/depression: “Why me? I can’t do this.”
    Fear/bargaining: “I don’t know if I can live without my group. Maybe I can still associate with it on a limited basis, if I do what they want.”
    Reassessment: “Maybe I was wrong about the group’s being so wonderful.”
    Accommodation/acceptance: “I can move beyond this experience and choose new directions for my life” or…
    Reinvolvement: “I think I will rejoin the group.”
    Passing through these stages is seldom a smooth progression. It is fairly typical to bounce back and forth between different stages. Not everyone achieves the stage of accommodation / acceptance. Some return to cult life. But for those who do not, the following may be experienced for a period of several months:

    flashbacks to cult life
    simplistic black-white thinking
    sense of unreality
    suggestibility, ie. automatic obedience responses to trigger-terms of the cult’s loaded language or to innocent suggestions
    disassociation (spacing out)
    feeling “out of it”
    “Stockholm Syndrome”: knee-jerk impulses to defend the cult when it is criticized, even if the cult hurt the person
    difficulty concentrating
    incapacity to make decisions
    hostility reactions, either toward anyone who criticizes the cult or toward the cult itself
    mental confusion
    low self-esteem
    dread of running into a current cult-member by mistake
    loss of a sense of how to carry out simple tasks
    dread of being cursed or condemned by the cult
    hang-overs of habitual cult behaviors like chanting
    difficulty managing time
    trouble holding down a job
    Most of these symptoms subside as the victim mainstreams into everyday routines of normal life. In a small number of cases, the symptoms continue.

    * This information is a composite list from the following sources: “Coming Out of Cults”, by Margaret Thaler Singer, Psychology Today, Jan. 1979, P. 75; “Destructive Cults, Mind Control and Psychological Coercion”, Positive Action Portland, Oregon, and “Fact Sheet”, Cult Hot-Line and Clinic, New York City.

  44. Cherryn

    I hope you survive this period of darkness in your life .I wish I could say I have experienced it myself but I haven’t ….

    I can see the real struggle you are experiencing .There are Millions gone through this , whether Jw’s , Mormon, Moonies etc and have survived and life has got beter for them and laughter and happiness returned .

    Sometimes I feel guilty that my comments may have started this process for someone , but I believe I’m being Honest so what can I do . You too will be warning others if you realise its not true and exit yourself .

    Its part of therapy and recovery to speak out against the church and warn others .How else do you get some form of retribution ?

    I am planning on stopping church attendance after 2 years solid of association and friendship , it’s impossible to continue for me , my mind is made up .

    I will still be the same person , the church hasn’t done anything for me except maybe influenced me to follow word of wisdom and be more charitable , which I will keep and have no regrets over .

    Their are good things in the church , but the balance tilts the other way , there are too many controversial things .Its not what it claims to be is probably the scariest for me .

    I can’t accept the arrogance of Priesthood Power and Authority and to constantly teach other churches are ineffective and void of any fullness or that ones destiny is selected only through Mormonism corporate ladder oc worthiness and temple works .

  45. Jay

    You are correct , There are many strong people in church and it puzzles me , although I have not seen one convert in my two years which fits this .

    They were all vulnerable and needy in one way or another …. if the church really is a help and light for them then fair enough .But if they find out the history and likely experience a future turmoil then really they should be told everything in the begining .

    This is my biggest criticism , prospective converts are not taught the real history or version of events .If they were there would hardly be any converts .The longer these things are hidden the less chance of affecting them until its too late from the conditioning process which has led them to believe things they would have found unacceptable had they known in the begining .

  46. The ward I grew up in around the Washington, D.C. area was composed of Doctors, Lawyers, Government diplomats, etc. Almost everyone in my ward was a highly educated professional.

    I am finding out now that they have known about these issues for a long time, yet they continue to be faithful LDS members. They have come to peace with the difficulties of human error within the Church. I admit it gives me hope that I can do the same.

  47. Where to go from here???!!!

    1st Jay,

    Thank you for your comment, sometimes these blogs get tiring and we just go in circles. Your words are kind and make this seem a little more worth it :)

    You are so correct, I did know most of the controversy with the LDS church, I researched both sides BEFORE I prayed. Even though I did not get any sort of conclusion from my research, I did learn a lot of the positive AND the negative.

    EJ, i’d like to say a few things about some of your comments,

    1st you say:

    “Mormonism doesn’t allow for other churches being fine , I am reminded weekly how other churches have no authority whatsoever and no hope of returning to Heavenly Father. I wonder do you listen in church lessons or just socialize like many in our ward .”

    I have a much different experience. In MANY other churches I have heard (in sermons) that if you don’t belong to their specific church you will burn in hell. Let me even be more specific,

    I have an uncle who is a Lutheran pastor. When he heard I was investigating the LDS church he wrote me a 5 page letter. In this letter he says “If you join the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints you, your husband, and your children will spend eternity burning in hell, Do you want to risk your soul and the souls of your children? Do you want to burn in hell or do you want to spend eternity with us?”

    I cannot count how many times I have been told that I am going to burn in hell for being LDS!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Now this is the exact opposite from what I hear in the LDS church. And to answer your question I actually do listen to the talks given in church and I have NEVER heard anyone say that anyone from another denomination will go to hell. Infact we don’t believe in “hell” like other churches do! I have actually talked to many in our church (mission pres. bishops, stake pres.) and I have heard this straight from their mouths, That MANY from OTHER denominations are righteous and will be in the celestial kingdom. Not only that but I have also been told that there are MANY good churches and good people in the world that are not LDS and that they are doing the best they know how!

    2nd you say:

    “Mormonism is a trap to rigidly conform with the Priesthood Power and Authority . It entraps weak and vulnerable people .”

    You obviously have the conclusion that I am weak and vulnerable, But if I was so weak and vulnerable how would I be able to handle the difficulties and trials that I have overcome???

    You can think this of me if you wish but let me tell you of someone who also joined the LDS church who is most certainly NOT weak or vulnerable! It’s my AMAZING husband who was baptized right along with me.

    He spent 6 years in the army (special forces) and has been to Iraq 3 times. Weak and vulnerable??? I think not!

    Some of the most intelligent people I know are LDS.

    I have one more issue and that is from a previous comment that I over looked earlier, you say:

    “I have knocked with the missionaries , I have seen myself the tactics used to try and palm off a BofM on people . All their kindness is just for one thing only……… to get people in the cult .The missionaries couldn’t care less otherwise .”

    I have knocked with the missionaries also, and I have to say how sad this particular comment you make is. Missionaries are my absolute FAVORITE people in the world! Do you really think that they would take 2 years out of their lives to trick people? I remember specifically the faces of the missionaries who knocked on our door, I remember what I saw in their eyes. Missionaries couldn’t care less otherwise! are you kidding???? Not to say there aren’t SOME out there for the wrong reasons, but the ones that I have been in contact with love the gospel with all their hearts and selflessly give their time and love to others. How many other 19 year olds that you know in any other church do this??? Of course there may be a few hundred but the LDS church has over 50,000!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (I LOVE missionaries!!!)

    I really don’t mean to go off on you here EJ but the gospel is my passion and it is my life.

    Rick,

    I understand where you are comming from, and i’m sure there are soooo many members who feel the way you do. I wish I could give you the knowledge that I have in my heart, but sadly that’s not the way it works :(

    Jay I’m sorry I keep going on and on, thanks for letting me have a chance to say what I have to say!

    Steph :)

    (p.s. to those who lose comments, i always copy my comment before I post it in case it gets lost)

  48. steffielynn

    It sounds to me that you have fallen for the missionary love and zeal hook line and sinker .

    Maybe some are genuine ? but

    My experience of missionaries is that nearly all of them couldn’t really care less after the mission about me and others .When they were trying to get a baptism from me they would say hey you are so good , you are awsome ,blah blah

    Its clear to me they are just repeating what they have been taught and programmed to do at MTC and Zone conferences …

    One missionary told me how great I was at decorating my house and asked me if I was going to decorate the landing ? I replied ” I’ve already done it ” !

    And that sums it up nicely .
    I’ve seen first hand their love and concern and its mostly fabricated or at least they think they mean it at the time .They are just kids for goodness sake with no experience or knowledge of the church history, doctrine and reality …

    They come on missions because its been expected of them from Young and the subtle pressure from parents and ward leaders is evident . They also expect to be more attractive to females as a ‘Returned Missionary’,

    It seems to me that you’ve never experienced communtity love before and have been taken in by The Mormons Love and attention .

    I find it a bit artificial and conditional. I used to get great welcomes in church until they realised I wasn’t going to join in a rush and in fact know the history …
    Now I can see one or two would like to get rid of me !
    Its obvious my questions are too hard for them and to close to reality and it scares them !

    I was challenged by my Bishop to find ‘a better organisation ‘ ?

    What happened to the only true church on the face of the earth ? Now its just the best organisation ?

    I am an Investigator ( one who Investigates ) You just call me anti becasue I don’t agre with you and find it to be the one true church but in fact the opposite …

  49. EJ,
    I respect your opinion and realize that it is valid to come to the conclusion that the LDS faith is in error. I do not share your assessment of missionaries. The majority are sincere people that want to share a message about Christ among the people they serve. I agree that they are not equipped with the information necessary to confront hard issues, but this is not their main purpose. Their job is to bring souls to Christ. If they spent all their time with people that question everything they would not be able to attend to their main job.

    I don’t think questioning is bad, but missionaries are there to teach, not to spend endless hours debating about controversial LDS history. I also don’t believe young LDS men go on missions just to impress potential mates. Love is love and a mission doesn’t change that. What would happen to all the single converts over the age of eligible missionary service if this was true. They would automatically be outcasts.

    I do concede that many missionaries go on their mission due to social pressures within the Church. However, I believe this is wrong. Young men should not go on missions to please parents or anyone else. It should be their decision. With that said, there are those that feel it is not their decision to make and I can only attribute that to their own misunderstanding of free agency.

    The “fabricated” love and concern that you describe is an attempt to get to know you without having to always talk about religion. Missionaries may ask simple questions to get to know more about someone, this was known as building relationships of trust when I was a missionary. It is simply learning how to communicate with people you don’t know. A skill that comes hard to most people. Most people hate idle chitchat, but how else are you supposed to really get to know someone?

    I think about the people that I helped baptize all the time. I wonder what they are doing now. I know many return missionaries that keep in touch with converts they met on their mission and even return to visit with them. Personally, I feel sad that I will probably never see the people I helped convert again. I guess all I can say is that missionaries do care.

  50. EJ
    I still talk to the Missionaries who baptized us (who are off their mission). They keep in contact and one even came out for our sealing. I spend a lot of time with our missionaries and I know how much they love their investigators, how much time is spent teaching them and praying for and thinking about them. We all know that they don’t get any reward or payment for their selfless service.

    So I would say you are 100% correct when you say i’ve “fallen for the missionary love and zeal hook line and sinker.” It’s true I have. But it’s because it’s genuine and sincere. And my love and respect for them is also genuine and sincere.

    I was curious as to why you would attend a church that you think is a lie. I attend because I love the gospel and want to learn more. You just sound so hateful when you speak of the church, and of course I, someone who loves the church will get offended and defend it.

    I can understand why they would not want you to attend if you speak of Joseph Smith at church the way you do on this blog.

    Jay is correct, missionaries are there to teach the basics, But I do agree that many should be taught more in depth stuff (like the history) but they only have a few weeks in the MTC, I think the lessons should come from the parents. I know I will be teahing my son and daughter this stuff so that they will be prepared.

    So bottom line is MISSIONARIES ROCK :)

  51. steffielynn

    I don’t speak of Joseph Smith the way I do on here unless you mean ‘do I tell the truth’ …

    When asked why I won’t baptise then I am able to say truthfully why and this is what they don’t like , the fact that I know the real truth …. and those in the know prefer others not to know about them …

    The first mention of a hat and stone caused a massive ruffle . It was denied by the Ward missionary ! (what a big fool he is , full of his self righteous priesthood power ,I didn’t contend )

    It was also brought up by a disgruntled convert ( whom I’d informed ) in Elders Quorom only to be met by silence … This convert wants to get out now , he is angry for being duped …

    I have collected adresses , emails for all my previous missionaries and 90% of them don’t respond anymore , despite my ‘nice’ emails , not confrontational ones .

    The mission field ‘hypes’ them up into believing they care and that if they show love and are pure in obedience then they will get baptisms …. I agree some might be genuine and three have returned to see me with parents , wives etc ….. and yes i do still tell them the truth of that I’ve found , The inconsistencies , The outright arrogant lying of Joseph Smith and his inner circle … The main reason he ended up in carthage …

    What have I to fear if I’m telling the truth .I’d fear if I had to hide truthe from people in order to impreess them about the church ..

    Can you really share the translation story without telling of the stone in the hat ? and that the official Cowdery terminology or Urim and Thummim is not what came in the Box with the plates ?

    Can you really share with people that their family can be eternally happy together without telling them they may be polygamists also ( how would that affect the eternal family dream ) ?

    Can you really share the First Vision Account when its the one he came up with later on in his life and that his original ones were totally different ?

    Can you really share Ensigns and Church DVD’s showing all the POLYGAMIST leaders to be nice wonderful monogomists ? They bragged about polygamy !

    Can you really share that Indians are the Lamentites descended from Lehi like it says in the introduction to the Book Of Mormon and many D&C passages when they are really ‘Asians ‘ descended from Siberia/Mongolia …

    Do you tell the truth when you share this church’s gospel to your neighbours or do you ‘hide’, or withhold vital facts and information which would help make a more informed and honest decision on evaluating the church and the subsequent conditioning of the mind which follows …

    Jay .. I think you should feel some responsibilty to the ones you baptised .How would they feel if they knew the things you know ? Would they have joined in the first place ?

    You can say you didn’t know better yourself so the Leaders are to blame for selling everyone a ‘whitwashed’ history …. so why should I trust them with anything else ?

  52. When I tell others about the church I don’t “hide” anything!

    There is a big difference between what you know and what I know.

    You tell the history as you believe it. Most of what you say though is opinion. It’s what YOU believe happened.

    But you do know there are 2 sides to every story. To be perfectly honest I find church history to be very interesting (especially Porter Rockwell) And I know that there are bad things and there are good things but bottom line is that I wasn’t there, I can’t KNOW for certain if this happened or that.

    If you look at any history book it will be filled with errors. Now a days we have video, and computers, it’s a little easier to keep track. But even with that there are still sides. Take the war for instance. Do you think in 20 years the American History books will have a slightly different version of events then the Iraqi history books???

    EJ you are free to believe what you wish. But So are we, and we will all find out for sure one day. Until then I’m sticken with the super awesome Mormons.

    Oh, one more thing, Jay baptised people, but he is not the one who converted them, If they were touched by the Holy spirit (as I was) they know the church is true and nothing else matters!

  53. EJ,
    I don’t know if the investigators I helped baptize would have done so if they knew what I know now. I think people will deal with the issues differently.

    The way it is presented to a person for the first time has a lot to do with how they will react. If someone uses “Anti-Mormon” language then it would be very easy for someone to react negatively.

    I am discovering that there are ways to discuss issues rationally, setting judgments aside until all sides can be listened to and evaluated. If someone makes up their mind before that they have already formed a bias that will influence the rest of their judgments.

  54. Jay
    I do agree with you , believe it or not …

    The wholepoint of my issues against the Mormon Church is the way the Church is presented to the public …

    The Missionaries are teaching a distorted ( deceptive ) version of events .. Who wouldn’t feel emotionally stimulated by the whole Joseph Smith story until you find out the other parts … and telling them the full truth and being honest is as you say using ‘anti mormon’ language ….

    If this was a consumer product then there would be lots of refunds handed out and litigations ..

    As its a classed as a religion , no one gets their money back , no one gets their time back and many don’t get their sanity or family back ….

    Just look at all the organisations on the internet of ex mormons and recovering mormons and skeptic mormons , then the whole impact and carnage of the religion comes into perspective …

    I made my mind up AFTER reading the other ( more honest ) version of events and not before ..

    I would have liked the church to be true because it suits me fine , I find 3 hours not enough myself …but knowing what I do I find the three hours now void of any real truth but a constant repetition of white wash …

    I still keep wow and many other things so I’m not too disgruntled and have met new friends ..But I am firm in what I have discovered …. Had I baptised and devoted myself for numerous years and then found out then the consequences would have been dramatic .

    steffielynn

    The people Jay touched were more likely touched by him as a nice young missionary being Christ like and hearing the whitewashed version of the Joseph Smith story unbeknowing to Jay …..If Jay came as representing the reformed church of Jesus christ of latter day saints then the outcome would have been the same , yet both can’t be true at the same time ..

    I felt the ‘spirit’ always with or without missionaries but when you find out its not the way you were told you realise that the spirit is just an emotion generated within ..

    I feel the spirit more when people are honest irrespective of the outcome or the church looking in a bad light …

    I hope you inform your prospective converts where the Indians really came from and not fob them off with the BofM nonsense about them being Israelites.Its a gross injustice to the Indians and their heritage …

  55. YOu know I was talking with a friend last night, who asked me where my spark had gone. I answered him honestly, that I was feeling extreme saddness and loss over some things I had discovered about the church, and that I was hoping to fine some peace over it all… He genuinely hoped that I would find it soon, and he would like the old me back… I told him that it was not going to be quite as easy as that… and he said, well as long as you still have your testimony you will be fine…

    At that point I just wanted to sob!

    We talked at length about some of the topics that we talk about on here, until finally he said… I just cant hear any more, I cant talk about this any more.

    And I asked him… Why are we taugh not to question? Why are we taught that if we question that we have let satan into our hearts? If I have not sinned and I am questioning in earnest to find some truth, does that mean I automatically become a target for satan? or that I must have sinned in order to let satan in to make me question?

    He had no answer. And I dont begrudge him that, they are tough questions, the likes of which most faithful members dont have the answers. For those of us who were raised in the church, the answers come automatically, we are told from a very young age what we believe and who we can trust.

    So E.J. just remember that it is tough for many members to open their minds to some of the questions you (and others) pose, it is opening a void for them, and in that void and betrayal and pain… so for most, they would rather leave that door closed and continue living a good life… after all they are not hurting anyone, Mormons are for the most part good, loving and caring people trying to better themselves and those around them, the thruth is not something that is needed to continue on that road, they were on it just fine until the questions were placed before them.

    Then there are those that will listen, research, discuss, and go back to that road anyway because it is the road they know and feel comfortable on, it is what they know, what their fathers knew and those before them.

    Then there are the people who want to scream it from the roof tops. The point is, the only person you will influence for the long haul is yourself, and the memebers who have lived this way for ever are going to find it to be overwhelmingly challenging, heart renching, and depressing. The church gave them hope, love, friendship, kindness, acceptance etc… turning your back on that is not an easy thing to do. You feel like you are betraying everything you have been taught. You feel like you are ripping the hearts right out of your loved ones, and the looks on their faces is unbearable.

    So when you are giving your speaches about the absolute truth, just try to be kind, and remember that there are those of us who do want to know, but that it is going to be a painful, very painful ride.

    I understand why there are those passionate, angry ANTI”S out there, I feel their pain.

  56. Hi Cherryn

    I understand very much your sentiments and I agree that church members are on the whole kind and loving , but so are people who are not Mormons and although the people are kind and loving the religion isn’t that kind .I find church teachings on Sundays quite arrogant when I hear the same boastfull ” only we are the true church ” and ” all the others are lacking ” …. ” our deacons have more authority than the pope “etc

    My Bishop seems to think that in every other religion they all go to church for an hour on Sunday and then Sin like crazy the next 6 days ! How arrogant … its not the case ….. look at The Salvation Army , look at Christian Aid , Catholic Aid , and numerous other church based charities .

    and how pure is the bishop in reality anyway ? I see too many judgemental individuals , and the church has made them that way …

    This is what mormonism does to some people , turns them into self righteous deluded individuals …. who think they are going to be Gods with multiple teen wives in the CK .

    I have a friend who converted at 19 , it tore her parents heart out to see her join the church and end up believing ( in my judgement ) a pack of lies … Now she’s 36 and starting to learn of the real history and its potentially destroying her to even think she may have been duped and that her own feelings misled her …

    Mormonism splits families whether here on in the eternities … the message of families can be together is false .The church really believes that families can be polygamous forever ….

    Church members have to take some responsibility themselves for being too trusting of the deceptive church leaders .

    I know the feeling myself, As a youth I once trusted the Jehovahs Witness Leaders to be honest ( they did claim to represent God on the earth ) and it was devastating to find they were lying to me all along …

    I was only 20 at the time and leearned my lesson ..

    I hope you stay strong for whats ahead .I’ve listened to lots of Mormons speak or write about their experiences in finding out the church isn’t true .. From the initial shock and devasting dark period eventually comes Joy again and a far better hapiness knowing that Honesty won the day and a sense of gaining confidence to make informed decisions on important things in life . Hopefully your discovery doesn’t cause family turmoil for you ..

    Sometimes its hard to be kind in that the very nature of the things I am trying to say is what really hurts the mormon believer .The real truth hurts more than the presentation …

  57. EJ,
    While I agree that some common statements in the LDS Church made by members are arrogant (i.e. a Deacon having more priesthood than the Pope), there are similar statements made by other Christian churches that LDS members find offensive.

    The most common example is when other Christians say that Mormons are going to “burn in Hell”. Is this not the exact same arrogance? They are essentially saying that they hold the one true view and Mormons do not. In addition, they presume to know the mind and will of God well enough to condemn a group of people to eternal damnation. Whatever happened to judge not that ye be not judged?

  58. Jay,

    I agree with your assessment of Christian arrogance. I have seen it and witnessed it firsthand when I joined the LDS church.

    However, if we analyze the sources of these statements, we will realize that mormons only have JS as their source for such arrogance, where Christians observe the contradictions of the mormon church when compared to mainstream Christianity. So the belief that mormons are going to hell stems from that observance.

    I don’t agree with it, as I don’t believe in Hell, plus the notion of a loving father sending millions of his children to burn for eternity simply because they believe this over that is rediculous at best.

    Again, I agree that Christian arrogance exists, but I have to admit there is more to stand on regarding that point of view.

  59. Rick,
    So it’s OK to be arrogant as long as your in the majority?

  60. Nope, not the point I failed to make. Let me try again.

    When I joined the LDS church, I witnessed the arrogance of my former Baptist church…not sure if that was clear.

    The point I was trying to make is that LDS arrogance is based on the teachings of JS that have been around for 150+ years.

    MS Christian arrogance is based on comparing Mormon teachings with traditional Christian teachings which have been around for 2000+ years.

    I don’t agree with either instance of arrogance. Just pointing out that 2000+ years is more to fall back on than 150+ years.

  61. Thanks for the clarification. I agree.

  62. Well, I understand you better than you may think. Sometimes I just don’t know what to think when I see things like this happen.

    Can you please send me your findings on the subject? My wife asked me a few questions on the subject and I would like to be able to answer her correctly.

    Greetings from Belgium

  63. Miguel,

    I would be happy to send you what I have learned. The more people that are made aware of the issue the better. It really bothers me that myths about black continue to be circulated in the Church and I’d like to see it stop. I’ll look for my notes and get them to you as soon as I can.


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