Posted by: Jay | September 19, 2007

Speaking ill of the Lord’s anointed

gordon_b_hinckley_md.jpg

What does it mean to speak ill of the Lord’s anointed? As Latter-day Saints we are counseled against doing it. The implication is that we can never openly question our leaders. Is this truly what is meant by speaking evil of the Lord’s anointed?

The other day my wife and I were talking about what this meant. I had stated my negative opinion about some of Brigham Young’s views. I made statements about his motives that my wife found offensive. So when is it all right to question a Prophet, Apostle or other leaders? Can we ever believe they are wrong and not be an apostate? Should we speak out if our conscience moves us to do so? I’m really trying hard to understand this concept because I don’t want to be offensive, but I do have my own ideas about why things happened. I feel like it is my right to express those if someone asks me my opinion or broaches a controversial subject. I’d love to hear what anyone else has to add on this topic.

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Responses

  1. DALLIN H. OAKS, LDS Quorum of the Twelve Apostles: The life of the mind can be seen to be in flat-out opposition to one’s faith.

    DALLIN H. OAKS, LDS Quorum of the Twelve Apostles: It’s wrong to criticize leaders of the church, even if the criticism is true.

  2. This post made me think of how oppressive kings used to use the verse that says that God appoints all the rulers of the world (Daniel 4:17 I believe).

    I’m not saying that the LDS prophet is an oppressive king by any means. But I do think it’s a valid question to ask “who made that scriptural and would they have any incentive to do so.”

  3. well ,

    I’m not afraid to criticise leaders ..The bishop has no authority on me .I’m just a ‘visitor ‘ and it says ‘visitiors welcome ‘ on the church sign ! lol

    I openly declare Brigham Young taught some absolute disgraceful blasphemic things …. because its true .

    I call my bishop by his first name ! :) thats who he really is ….

    My former bishop and current one have obviously spoken nonsense in the past . Its clear to me that they are not divinely inspired but just men making normal rational leadership decisions and attributing it to ‘inspiration’ ….

    My new bishop has told members that ‘EJ will get a testimony ‘ …..

    If I do I will join at once :)

    Does anyone here agree with my Bishop that I will get a Testimony ???

    ……… well ?

  4. I think it could happen,(na dhope and pray that it will!) The Lord has preformed some pretty HUGE miracles in the past! :)

  5. sorry I meant to say and I hope and pray that it will…

    I sent it before I read it :)

  6. I’m praying the girl I love will quit the church :) and mend the gulf with her family .If the church was true her Mother and Father and brother would have wanted to join also …

    She was only 19 and not well informed when she joined … I believe she was manipulated by missionaries ..and then conditioned once at church .

    Now you know how come I lasted so long in church .. lol

  7. Ohhhhhhh……. it’s all coming together now! I’m sure it is a very hard place for her to be in too. Her Faith or her man?!?

  8. steffie

    Her faith is winning :( I have an advantage though …. Real Truth and Faith In a real Jesus Christ .. My prayers will be answered …. Truth and Honesty is from God .Lying and deceiving is from Satan ..

    The church has an abysmal history of lying ……

    http://home.teleport.com/~packham/lying.htm

  9. EJ
    Why is YOUR faith true and HERS is not??????

    Here we go in circles again :)

    So EJ what Faith are you????? Do you believe the same as most people I encounter??? (that Mormons will burn in Hell)

    Jay. I’m sorry I’m always commenting on here, Tim yelled at Jared the other day for taking over, (which in my opinion was a little harsh, Jared made good points) But I’m probably even worse :)

  10. Steffie
    No I don’t believe Mormons will burn in hell …

    I believe Mormons will turn to the real Christ whether in thisn life or the next …..

    The Mormon Gospel will end at death and true religion will be manifest through Jesus Christ who awaits …..

    Her faith is a belief from Joseph Smith ? it comes from his writings , from his behaviour and not from Jesus Christ …..

    Did you read about Mormon Leaders Lying ? and do you think this is Ok for them to do this ?

  11. I did read it, and what you call lies I call opinion. Like when Gordon B Hinckley stated “I don’t know” I don’t understand how you can come to the conclusion that it is a lie.

    So I have another question for you. If you do not believe Mormons will burn in Hell and that they will at some point find the “real” Christ, then why do you have a problem with her faith???? If it is in her heart that this is true, and she is happy, and will not face damnation then why not let her have her own beliefs??? It certainly doesn’t mean that YOU have to. If you love her I would think you would be happy that she believes in something. I know that you DON’T believe, But again those are YOUR beliefs!

    Mormons believe as it states in The Articles of Faith # 11
    We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own cconscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.

    You should allow her the same privilege!!!

  12. steffie,

    The problem, is that the LDS church advises against mixed marriages (religious or otherwise). Ask anyone here that has doubts about the church, how that has affected their marriage (assuming they are married). It is not like a Baptist marrying a Methodist. The LDS think they are the only one’s with the truth, no exceptions. This is not an ideal situation for a relationship if both partners do not believe. It is perfectly understandable for EJ to wish his girlfriend would leave the church, because he is not willing or wanting to leave her, and he feels that she is being taken advantage of.

  13. Rick,

    I know a whole lot of people (mostly women) in the church who’s spouse is not a member. I’m sure it is hard but it is also possible, the church frowns upon it because the ultimate goal is to have a temple marriage, to be together forever.

    If someone Loves the Lord and puts Him #1 in their life, and believes something with all their heart, then who is anyone to make them sacrifice their beliefs????

    Same with her parents as EJ has stated, they are sad, but what about HER and HER happiness??? I can say I understand how she must feel because I am in the same situation. My Heavenly Father is #1 in my life, People should be happy for me!!

  14. steffielynn

    Gordon Hinckley is a liar , simple as that .

    He was asked do you believe God was once a man ?
    How can he say I don’t know ??
    This church believes this and teaches it …

    Joseph Smith was a liar too , he denied having more than one wife and had over 33 at the time , and even worse was his arrogant boastful decpetive lying that the truth would come out and his opponents seen to be perjurers etc . well HE WAS THE BIG LIAR and THE TRUTH did come out …. and you choose to believe him.

    Read Joseph Smiths Address To Dissenters in Nauvoo

    http://www.utlm.org/onlineresources/sermons_talks_interviews/smithboastingandpolygamydenial.htm

    The church has a history of lying and believes its perfectly ok to lie when it suits the leaders secret agendas ….

    They won’t think twice about lying to you either Steffie.You’re just a number , a baptismal statistic.A source of 10% for them .

    I have a probelm with her faith because she has been deceived , manipulated and conditioned and is being siphoned of time and money ….She has no blessings whatsoever because its all baloney ..

    I am making progress with her .She didn’t believe me when I told her that Joseph Smith married other mens wives and some while the husbands were out on missions …

    Well she is facing a hard reality check now .Not only that but Brigham Young teaching Mary physically had Sexual Intercourse with Adam God to concieve Jesus …. and was not begotten of the Holy Ghost …..

    Do you believe him ? he was the prophet and called ( threatened ) many young girls to concieve with him at his old age , all in the name of God …its a disgrace … Follow the Prophet he won’t lead you astray !! hahahahah

    How is it her own beloved church managed to keep all this from her ???

    Your Articles of faith 11 was written because they wanted to keep the SEX club of Polygamy going …. How else were old men going to access young teenage girls ? except to scare them with Gods wrath for disobeying them ..

  15. steffielynn

    People can be together forever anyway …. thats everyones right from God ..

    We don’t need a ‘bogus’ organisation hijacking whats rightfully ours anyway in return for paying 10% for the privilage …

    Its just a scam … and despicable ..

  16. I gladly pay my 10 % and maybe she does to?!?
    Do I really need to show you how much of tithes go to those in need? I know you probably already know this. It also goes to building churches, Temples and literature.

    EJ we really do keep going in circles, You basically keep repeating the same things, as do I.

    I believe it’s true.

    YOU believe it is a lie.

    Both are opinions

    I can except that it is possible that it is all made up.

    But can you except that it can possibly be true?

    I had a very amazing experience. I CANNOT deny that. If I come to the end of my days and I was wrong I will regret none of it.

  17. Steefielynn

    Can you show me how much of Tithes goes to those in need ? I can’t find any infor about it because the church keeps it Secret , so how do you know ?

    I know how much goes to humanitarian aid from Humanitarian aid offerings

    The church donated $95 million dollars in 2004 to humanitarian aid .There were 12.275 million members that year

    That equates to $7.7 per member for the year … thats 64 cents a month …..

    Ok so lets face the fact there only really about 4 million members , that makes it $23.75 dollars a year per member …. $1.98 a month ..

    Now give me your Tithe figures to the poor, because I reckon most of it goes on Business and property deals for temple recommend mormon business men and employment salaries to run the church ….

    I wish I could understand your experience because it would help me to understand my friend and many others ….

    Ps we are not going round in circles , we are travelling ahead ! :)

  18. sorry I spelt your name wrong :( rushing with two finger typing !

  19. EJ,
    Please tone it down. You are getting too agressive and have stepped over the line a few times in disrepecting others beliefs. It’s okay to disagree, but I want everyone to feel like their opinion matters here. Personal attacks on anyone are not ok.

    “Gordon B. Hinkely is a liar, simple as that.”

    “[You’re just] a source of 10% for them.”

    “She has no blessings at all because its all a bunch of boloney.”

    “…they want to keep the SEX club of polygamy going.”

  20. There are probably even less then 4 million who pay tithe. I realize they don’t go off and report where all the tithing goes, but I believe in the church and I believe it is being well spent (or saved) Whatever the case may be I would rather donate to this church then any charity.

    We are in a branch right now and we just purchased land to build a new church, I think it’s pretty sweet to be able to pay off the land and the building and have no debt! This is how it should be in my opinion.

  21. steffielynn

    You’ve conveniently evaded the tithe question about how much goes to poor …

    you did say “Do I really need to show you how much of tithes go to those in need? ”

    I hope you will because its all hear say.I don’t believe hardly anything goes to the poor from tithe, look at the seperate humanitarian figures I gave you , they are very poor in context to membership fugires and the church will happily publish them so why not with Tithe figures if anything does really go to the poor ?

    You’ve agreed with me then that Tithe goes to pay property developers etc and most employed will be temple recommend holders …. ( same with Temple buidling contracts ) …

    The church keeps its accounts Secret so you will never know if anything or how much really does go to the poor ….

    I’ve heard many times about tithing going to the poor but it simply has no evidence or accountibility to show any of it being true … The church can easily publish figures like it does with Humaitarian Aid .

    Jay ,

    Sorry about my Zeal but these are my View points and they may actually be true .. I believe they are ….

    Answer this then

    Did Gordon Hinckley lie when he said ” I don’t Know ” about the teaching of God once being a man ?

  22. Jay

    You talk about my disrespecting beliefs ?

    Joseph Smith

    for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight” (Joseph Smith History 1:19).

    LDS Apostle Bruce McConkie wrote,

    It is also to the Book of Mormon to which we turn for the plainest description of the Catholic Church as the great and abominable church. Nephi saw this “church which is most abominable above all other churches” in vision. He “saw the devil that he was the foundation of it” and also the murders, wealth, harlotry, persecutions, and evil desires that historically have been a part of this satanic organization. (1 Ne. 13:1-10)
    He saw that this most abominable of all churches was founded after the day of Christ and his apostles; that it took away from the gospel of the lamb many covenants and many plain and precious parts; that it perverted the right ways of the Lord; that it deleted many teachings from the Bible; that this church was the “mother of harlots;”… (1 Ne. 13:24-42)

    Nephi beheld further that this church was the “mother of abominations,” and “the whore of all the earth”… (Mormon Doctrine, 1958 edition, page 130)

    …speaking of harlots in the figurative sense, [Nephi] designated the Catholic Church as “the mother of harlots” (1 Nephi 13:34; 14:15-17), a title which means that the protestant churches, the harlot daughters which broke off from the great and abominable church, would themselves be apostate churches.” (ibid., page 315)

    and I haven’t started on JOD quotes …

  23. EJ,

    The Book of Mormon does not accuse the Catholic Church of being the church of the Devil. Bruce R. McConkie falsely did that in Mormon Doctrine. He was forced to remove it in later additions because it was false.

    Saying someone or something is wrong is much different than the things you have been saying. Personal attacks don’t fly and neither does making outlandish statements about someone else religion. Feel free to disagree with others just be respectful.

  24. Jay,

    You need to go back and read 1 Nephi 13 again. After reading it, please tell me which church it is referring to if not the Catholic church. It is pretty clear to me.

    Another observation is that this chapter states that this abominable church removes many plain and precious things from the bible. This statement is false since there was no bible at this time, and nothing has been removed from the bible since it was created. If this chapter had said that many things were left out by the abominable church (again this HAS to be referring to the Catholic church) it would have been more accurate, but that is not what it says.

    This chapter is clearly written thru the understanding of Joseph Smith, because I doubt an angle of the lord would make this mistake.

    One last observation. This chapter makes it pretty clear that Columbus encounters Lamanites when he discovers America, and that the Europeans scatter these same Lamanites thru battle. This is why the Church has taught that the Indians are Lamanites. The BofM makes this pretty clear. Again, we know this is not true thru DNA. Another thing written thru the understanding of Joseph Smith and not what actually happened.

  25. Jay

    Are you saying BruceMcConkie was respectful ?

    I’m sure I’ll find more ‘respectful’ statements in the JOD’s as well … why do you allow them the privilage and even excuse them away ?

    Bruce McConkie’s statemenets were removed because the church needed to look good .The BofM is clear at who it is claiming to be the Church of Satan , The mother of all Harlots .This was a common fundamentalist protestant belief at the time .

    Who is the church of Satan then ? Why have such a strong passage of scripture if it doesn’t apply to anyone ? You can’t have it both ways …

    with reference to about my friend
    “She has no blessings at all because its all a bunch of boloney.”

    How else do you explain her total misfortune then ,She has been faithfull all her life to the church ..

    the church teaches that its your problem if you don’t get the blessings , its your worthiness etc The church is perfect but the members aren’t

    That in itself is questionable … I don’t find this church perfect , quite the opposite .. I find the individual members more trusting than the church as an organisation collectively..

    This is not good for sanity and mental health ….. this is comon amongst many who have left the church .They never got any real blessings …..Its all a myth designed to keep people paying tithe and obeying the priesthood in my opinion …

  26. I got the following info from the first link on a google search, I thought it was related to the topic. I post this not to piss anyone off or claim that the mormon church is a “cult” rather I would have them consider the questions at hand as it relates to the church and its leaders both past and present:

    “Ten warning signs of a potentially unsafe group/leader.”

    -Absolute authoritarianism without meaningful accountability.

    -No tolerance for questions or critical inquiry.

    -No meaningful financial disclosure regarding budget, expenses such as an independently audited financial statement.

    -Unreasonable fear about the outside world, such as impending catastrophe, evil conspiracies and persecutions.

    -There is no legitimate reason to leave, former followers are always wrong in leaving, negative or even evil.

    -Former members often relate the same stories of abuse and reflect a similar pattern of grievances.

    -There are records, books, news articles, or television programs that document the abuses of the group/leader.

    -Followers feel they can never be “good enough”.

    -The group/leader is always right.

    -The group/leader is the exclusive means of knowing “truth” or receiving validation, no other process of discovery is really acceptable or credible.

    A few warning signs regarding people involved in/with a potentially unsafe group/leader. I thought relevant:

    -Extreme obsessiveness regarding the group/leader resulting in the exclusion of almost every practical consideration.

    -Individual identity, the group, the leader and/or God as distinct and separate categories of existence become increasingly blurred. Instead, in the follower’s mind these identities become substantially and increasingly fused–as that person’s involvement with the group/leader continues and deepens.

    -Whenever the group/leader is criticized or questioned it is characterized as “persecution”.

    -Dependency upon the group/leader for problem solving, solutions, and definitions without meaningful reflective thought. A seeming inability to think independently or analyze situations without group/leader involvement.

    -Anything the group/leader does can be justified no matter how harsh or harmful.

    -Former followers are at best-considered negative or worse evil and under bad influences. They can not be trusted and personal contact is avoided.

  27. I have a few responses for some of the “10 warning signs”

    1st “No tolerance for questions or critical inquiry”

    I did not grow up in the church, I hardly knew the scriptures and I didn’t know how the church was structured or how it worked, I asked a million questions, and I still do. I have never ever been told that I can not question things. I hear other people say this, maybe it’s because they were brought up in the church and their parents taught them this. I don’t know but in my experience I have never experienced “No tolerance for questions or critical inquiry” I have gone to my stake Pres with questions, and my home teacher is a former stake Pres. and we get together often and I drill him.

    “Unreasonable fear about the outside world, such as impending catastrophe, evil conspiracies and persecutions.”

    I don’t get this one, are we talking about being prepared? that doesn’t seem unreasonable to me. Also being that I am a newer member, I have experienced the world and it is evil, no doubt about that! I teach the young women, and I wish I had been brought up with the knowledge and morals that they are taught!

    “Former members often relate the same stories of abuse and reflect a similar pattern of grievances.”

    By the church or by the people? Some members have warped views that are not the views of the church! I have never heard of stories of abuse by the church itsself.

    “There are records, books, news articles, or television programs that document the abuses of the group/leader.”

    where?????

    “Followers feel they can never be “good enough”.”

    This is the only place I have ever felt “good”. I have never been judged or looked down on, and the members all know they are not perfect, and don’t try to pretend that they are, they just try to be the best they can in a very difficult situation (the world).

    To the last part of you comment,

    The leader (I think we are talking about Gordon B. Hinkley) is human, he can be questioned. I have never felt the need to question him or his teachings, because I feel his teachings are pure and helpful. Now if he was to tell everyone that we need to all drink the koolaide I would most certainly question him!

  28. These were just general statements I found and not specifically related to the church but in my fairly extensive research over the past 3 years on early church history (Joseph Smith and Brigham Young especially) the evidence of their wrong doings and atrocious acts are overwhelming and after discovering these things it amazes me how we sing praises to these men who were some of the most dishonest and vile people out there. We as members wouldn’t for one second tolerate their same actions by a religous leader today under any circumstances, yet we sing “Praise to the Man” and talk about the great loving leader Brigham Young.

    I have come to realize that 90% of members haven’t even the slightest idea of what went on in the early church, and those who do try to belittle their actions as “well they are just imperfect men like anyone else”.

    Brigham Young taught and preeched murder which is still carried out among the FLDS church today, over 30 people since the 70s have been murdered in blood atonement related rituals which is a direct result of BY’s teachings. That is just one example where the church tries to pretend or deny that blood atonement wasn’t ACTIVLY taught, rather it was something BY may have said in jest and people took it literally.

    Either these prophets are inspired men of God or they are not, that doesn’t mean they are perfect but you have to draw the line somewhere as to what is OK and what isn’t.

    I agree that the church today is fairly benign, the doctrines and teachings have changed so much that it is almost unrecognizable from the early church but a few of those rules still apply:

    -don’t reveal financial records
    -don’t criticize leaders even when that criticizm is correct.
    -I know the church doesn’t preech “doomsday” like they used to but a few months ago we were considering taking a job in Las Vegas and my wife was hounded by several of her mormon co-workers saying how “these are the last days, and she shouldn’t be leaving Utah as this is the promised land, and Vegas is evil and full of sin” One guy went on to say (this guy is a Stake Pres, how when he drove through Vegas the last time his daughter who is mentally retarded and therefore very in tune with the spirit, there was just an evil spirit in Vegas and his daughter started screaming and freaking out because she knew how evil this place was.
    I was dumbfounded, afterall these are grown educated, and professions saying this crap, it was crazy.

    -I personally have seen the backlash of members/family since leaving the church, again there is NEVER an excuse to leave the church and anyone who does so is NEVER right under any circumstances, they are either: sinning, evil, under satans influence, etc.

    -The “not good enough” feeling wether it applies to you or not is irrelevant, it can’t be denied that a large percentage of people feel this way in the church. I would say moreso with people growing up in the church than converts who mostly have lived outside the church.

    -The leader is always right! Again, how can you disagree, these are men of God, God doesn’t lie, therefore you NEVER question your leaders, this is activly taught and reinforced doctrine at every level of the church from the bishop to the Prophet.

    -As members in the church we are all intitled to personal revelation…unless it happens to come into opposition with church doctrines, the prophet and “brethren” are the ultimate source of truth and supercede everything elese even scripture. How many times have you heard people say, “well we don’t understand doctrine X or commandment X, but we know it is right because the prophet has said so, and we will be blessed by following it” relating to some stupid rule or commandment.

    -the documented abuses, again this is just a general term and probably not really related to GBH and the brethren today but in relation to Brigham Young and Joseph Smith the documented abuses of power, sex crimes, criminal acts, etc. fill volumes and most members choose to not look at those things because after all, these are “imperfect men”, “we don’t understand the times they lived in”, “Satan is working hard to discredit them”, etc., etc., etc.

    A book my wife is reading today “Tell it All: A womans life Life in Polygamy” has her in tears every night. Written by Fanny Stenhouse, it covers her story as an educated woman in England, married to the mission president there, and her treck to the Salt Lake valley. It is heart breaking to see her first hand accounts and dealings with the prophet (Brigham Young) and church leaders with whom she was intimatly connected.

    Anyway because you haven’t grown up in the church your view on life is likely very different (even after joining the church) than most peoples’ who do grow up in the church, which I think is a very good thing.

  29. Steffie

    you said

    “I wish I had been brought up with the knowledge and morals that they are taught!”

    I think this is the key about the differences of how we feel about the church .I’ve been brought up like a Mormon and in a loving family with fantastic parents, sister and brother ,so for me there isn’t much to gain in that respect … Maybe I am being unfair in not accepting that you are entitled to experience this yourself in the Mormon church ….
    this goes back to my thoughts on need and vulnerability .Alot of women converts I speak to had unhappy and somewhat abusive families at home and the church was their only taste of real family love , although it comes at a price .. 10% and obedience to the system ..

    You can imagine how this looks to us outsiders .
    ****************************************

    “There are records, books, news articles, or television programs that document the abuses of the group/leader.”

    where?????

    You ask where ? there are many LDS church leaders arested for sexual abuse against kids and things …… then there is also more minor abuses of Authority .This whole Priesthood Power thing can make men arrogant .I’ve seen many times women asking for blessings .I feel sorry for them because they can ask themselves directly from God .Why do they feel they have to ask a man ?
    I don’t agree with this .It makes women vulnerable and feel they need the Men somehow .Its wrong ..
    **************************************

    “Now if he was to tell everyone that we need to all drink the koolaide I would most certainly question him!”

    I hope you would do alot more than question him but it confirms to me you really are someone I can speak with ! Many Mormons I know would only too gladly drink the Koolaide … Just look at those in the past who gave their wives to the prophet Joseph Smith !! Or look at those young girls who were fled to the breeding camp of Old Mormon men through Polygamous marriages for the purpose of creating the future Godmen’s posterity …..

    I wish they had been like you .

  30. I have met a lot of members who do not question things and it seems to be because of the way they were brought up. You are correct I do see things much differently and I am so thankful for my perspective. I feel it helps me to see all sides rather then just one.

    I speak to lots of members who have some warped views (in my opinion)

    The church actually teaches free agency, and we are to seek out truth. I think a lot of members don’t realize this.

    I think it extremly odd that members would say those things about Vegas (well i guess it’s slightly understandable since it is nicknamed “sin city). Vegas needs the gospel just as much as Utah does. My husband and I were actually thinking about moving to Utah to be around more Mormons. The members here told us to think twice, they said just because there are more, doesn’t mean it would be any better. From what I understand Zion is supposed to be wherever we are. And doesn’t EVERYONE need the gospel?!? It’s sad that there are people out there who give the church a bad name because of their lame comments. I see how that must have offended you!

    I see that not everyone has good experiences in the church. When I first joined I was assigned to visit teach an “inactive” lady. I was so confused I couldn’t undersatnd why anyone would be inactive. The gospel had filled me with so much joy I thought everyone would have this.

    I’m sorry there are members like the ones you mentioned. It seems they need to get out of their bubble and open their eyes.

  31. I’m going to completely avoid the above debate because it is a) no longer a debate as it has become accusatory; and b) it is a far cry from Jay’s original inquiry about questioning leadership.

    I question all the time. I know the covenants I’ve made but I’ve come to realize that everyone is human. I think my bishop is a douche bag and I’ve expressed my feelings to a few people who also share my opinion. The former stake prez was also a lame-o who had no sense of humor and ruled the stake like boot camp. Bruce R. McConkie was a racist who wrote things based on his opinion.

    Am I wrong in not sustaining my church leaders? Yes and no. I’ve made a covenant to do so but I was also given a brain and have the ability to make my own decisions. Over the years I’ve learned that we’re all human and we say and do things that aren’t in line with anyone’s thinking except our own… even people who are in high-ranking church positions. There is much I disagree with but I’m a firm believer in the fundamentals so I disregard what doesn’t work for me and focus on what does. I don’t slander my church leaders to non-members (apparently I only feel comfortable criticizing church leaders to the ones who would be the most offended… so how sick does that make me?).

    I believe we should think for ourselves and not be lemmings. I consider myself to be a good person and an active church member as well as a free thinker and I think I’m just fine.

  32. Pam,
    Please tell us how you really feel about your Bishop:)

  33. EJ
    AS I said before the friendships I develped came after I had already joined, I did not join because of the love and family relationships, I joined because my PRAYER was answered!

    Also because you keep bringing up 10%, I will share something with you that is very peersonal.

    I have been a member for almost 2 1/2 years. The whole first year we were members we did not pay tithing. I was never questioned or told I could not participate because of this. When we went to our first tithing setttlement I was nervous because I did not know what the bishop would say. I wanted to pay my tithe but it was not really in my budget. He was so kind and said he understood. that was all there was to it. A few months later I caught up on bills a decided to start tithing. Since then I have always had enough. I love paying tithe and I know that it is the least I can give to my Heavenly Father , who has given me so much. I was never presssured on this issue by anyone in the church and I was never looked down on.

    Also my obedience has blessed me, people always make it sound like we have rules to follow. They are commandments from God, (The word of wisdom etc) which have blessed my life. I have no problem following these commandments and bettering my life!

    And about the abuse, of course these men were horrible and did a very horrible thing. They were also excommunicated by the church.

    Men who hold the priesthood are held to a high standard. If they become arrogant because of it, then they will have to answer for that. But I have been in three wards and have seen wonderful men who are extremly humble and kind! The men I have come in contact with are so kind and loving toward their wives. My husband has always been wonderful, but after joiming the church and recieving the priesthood, he knows he has a huge responsibility to God and his family. He has become a better husband and a better all around person!

    I don’t know Jay but he appears to be this kind of man. he never speaks ill of anyone and always gets his point across without being offensive. I admire that so much!

  34. OK, so that was a little out of line. But the point is: follow your beliefs not because you’re told what they are but because you want to. Religious convictions should be based on your understandings of the gospel. Insulting and criticizing others isn’t the best behavior whether you’re religious or not.

  35. I totally agree you! Sometimes it’s difficult to disagree without criticizing the person. I like the idea of criticizing the action or the statement rather than making assumptions as to why it was said or done because we can only make a good guess, we don’t really know the intent of the person’s heart. It is very easy to apply sinister motives to what people do. I see it done all the time by critics of the LDS faith and it is all speculation no matter how well they think they know the facts.

  36. steffie

    10% Firstly let me say I think its a great fair way to fund a church if you believe in the church …..

    Secondly I think its wrong to tell people that by paying tithe they will be even better off finacially somehow .This is not true .Tithing is an honorable sacrifice and the blessing is a well funded church ….

    All the stories I hear about tithe paying leading to wage rises and unespected money turning up in the post etc is simply ridiculous and it puts me off …

    I was pressured to tithe very early on . I said I will tithe only if after my investigation I found out the church is false I would want a refund !

    So they say ‘sorry no refunds ‘… My response ” I better make sure then first ” …

    I do pay other things fasts , humaitarian aid etc .. I think I trust the church enough in that respect …

    But at the end of the day Its impossible to be a long term member if you don’t pay tithe because its linked to a temple recommend and the whole purpose of the religion is to get into the temple .All efforts falling short of this are in vain really …. All lessons ulimately lead up to this . A non tithe payer couldn’t last long in his conscience really in that state ..

    Baptism is meaningless as its no better off really then being an Athiest .The only way to Heavenly Father is actually to Pay up .. No pay no Heavenly Father … Its simple as that …

    To an outsider its seen as paying for salvation ….

    Did Brigham Young ever pay a Tithe or Joseph Smith ? Brigham Young made his fortune in the church and Joseph Smith carved a living out of it …

    D&C 43:13 privide for Joseph food and rainment and whatsoever he needs

    D&C 41:7 Build Joseph a House ! lol

    D&C 24:9 Joseph doesn’t need to go to work !

    D&C 124:56 build for Joseph a boarding house …

    I’m just looking into the nature of this boarding house as I think this is where he had a bar fitted to serve alcohol .. It kind of sounds like a Hotel type of business ..

  37. On the subject of Tithing and Temples .I see the Temples are very elegantly furnished and adorned ( Very Expensive )… I know which church Joseph had in mind in this scripture but wouldn’t it equally apply to the Mormon church as well ?

    Morm. 8: 37
    37 For behold, ye do love money, and your substance, and your fine apparel, and the adorning of your churches, more than ye love the poor and the needy, the sick and the afflicted.

  38. Good point, but churches are not temples. They are nice because it is “God’s house”. So you only want the best.

  39. I think that the point E.J. was trying to make, is… look at all the $ being spent on Temples and chapels and Malls (SLC)… I mean when a new building goes up to replace and old one, all the pianos, benches, hymn books, all tossed, or given away to be replaced by completely new ones… I have always thought that to be rather extravigant, there does not seem to be much recycling going on. Anywhere else in the world they will take whatever they can get, seriously, I was raised in Australia, and our whole yearly budget for Young Women was $100.. yep here in my ward now, $3000… tell me how that is right on any level? Cost of living in Aust, much higher than here… so where is that disconnect… maybe somewhere over the pacific…?

    But to the point of speaking Ill of the Lords annointed… I think that there is a limit… we should think for ourselves, we SHOULD ask questions and research. It has become common practice to just sit on our butts and eat up everything that we are fed… so really who is to blame on that one? (speaking mostly for those born in the church) I know we are encouraged to pray pay and obey, but absolute obedience without thought smacks of cult…

    Now look at a child, throwing a tantrum, not getting what they want and having a little fit over it… what do we do, we send them to their rooms and tell them that when they are ready to play nice with the rest of us, they are welcome to come out.

    I think that is how the church lloks at things, you can ask your questions, but if you want to throw a tantrum about it, then go somewhere else, we are living our lives quite happily without all your noise, so come back when you are ready to be sweet and play nice.

    Now do they have the right to do that… absolutely, it is their church so they make the rules, if you want to be in their church then you live by their rules… Same anywhere really isn’t it. The higher auhority has the right becasue we gave it to them, we sustain them at every large meeting, we give them our vote of confidence when we pay our tithing etc… they run the show, and if you want to be there, then be there…

    At the end of the day, speaking ill of the lords anointed comes down to respect right… these are the rules, live them or get off the ship. And dont make waves that knock others off the ship when you leave, they are here by their own free will and choice, so have a little respect and leave quietly.

    Unfortunately for those people that feel like they have just been on the biggest con ride of their lives, it is a little difficult to remain all clam and quiet… where am I goin with this… Oh I dont know… The Mormon way of life is to do what you are told and then you will be saved… well I am pretty sure that was Satan’s plan… I mean according to the plan of salvation…

  40. Jay
    I’m very dissappointed at your comment

    “Good point, but churches are not temples. They are nice because it is “God’s house”. So you only want the best.”

    Don’t you think thats what the Christians think of there churches as well as Gods house ? So why does Joseph Smiths Pen condemn them when he introduced the same thing but probably even worse . Hippocracy ..

    Look at the annual spend on Humanitarian Aid and then compare it with Temples , Malls , property etc .. Its obvious what is more important to the church …..
    Morm. 8: 37
    37 For behold, ye do love money, and your substance, and your fine apparel, and the adorning of your churches, more than ye love the poor and the needy, the sick and the afflicted.

    I see fine appare lon the Apostles when i’ve seen them on DVD and not only that a very fine Palace surroundings also and very fine excecutive cars too ..

  41. Jay

    You say the Temple is Gods House ?

    Acts 17: 24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;

  42. You cannot achieve the highest glory of the C-Kingdom without the saving ordinances performed in the Temple.

    You cannot get into the Temple if you do not pay a full tithing.

    Clear to me that you must pay to be saved.

  43. Cherynn,
    Ward budgets are supposed to be determined by the number of people that attend each Sunday. I think I remember that you live in ID or UT somewhere. You might have more YW attending meetings than you did in Australia. If not it may have been the Bishop you had. The budget is always determined by numbers.

    The short of it is that I don’t think it is wrong for any religion to have nice chapel or temples or churches. What matters is the why. Remember it is the love of money (i.e. riches) that is evil, not the money itself. Having nice churches or temples or places of worship doesn’t in itself mean that a church is evil. Just like being rich doesn’t mean a person is bad.

    EJ,

    I’m not quite sure why you are disappointed in my comment. Maybe you took it in a different way than it was intended.

    I have been to Salt Lake and in the parking garage under the church office building where the 12 keep their cars, not one of them is a luxury vehicle. As far as their apparel is concerned it is not any more extravagant than you would see at a typical church (LDS or not) on Sunday. I’ve met 3 Apostles personally and have never seen them in anything extravagant, nice, but not extravagant. The general authorities are very cautious not to be extravagant because they know people are watching them and they know it’s not their money.

    The Church does have a lot of land and other things. In the past the Church has come close to being unable to support its growth. Now the church doesn’t have that problem. I’m sure that the people they have managing the money do what it takes to keep that going.

    Calling a temple the “House of God” is not a Mormon phrase. It comes from the bible.
    Ezra 6: 3, 5, 7-8, 12, 16-17, 22
    Neh. 10: 32-34, 36-39
    1 Chr. 29: 2-3, 7, 16
    Joel 1: 13-14, 16

    So I’m a little confused as to how you can criticize calling the temple God’s house. As a side note the temples of the bible were very extravagant (e.g. gold, silver, fine wood). Probably much more so than the ones we have today.

    Rick,
    I think it would better be stated obey to be saved. If God really asks us to do something and we refuse to do it, do you really expect him to save us? I would never refuse God something I know he has asked me to do. The question is, does God really require this of us? If you know the answer is yes then you should do it.

  44. Jay ..
    I see you are using the Old Testament to support your views .. ..You can use the old testament to support rape , death for working on the sabbath , and kiling babies too .Those verse are meaningless for that reason…

    I thought you were meant to be Christians and yet you use a type of Judaism to support your church ….

    The New testament is clear
    “Acts 17: 24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;”

    Why are there no New Testament supporting scriptures for your temples and ordainances ?

    Its clear to me that you are guilty of what Joseph was using to condemn other churches

    Morm. 8: 37
    37 For behold, ye do love money, and your substance, and your fine apparel, and the adorning of your churches, more than ye love the poor and the needy, the sick and the afflicted.

    Yes your church does love money , its obsessed with tithing ….. whats the difference whether you call it money or tithe ? They love the tithes , it helps adorn the temples and ye love the temples more than the needy the sick and the afflicted ..The spend comparison says it all .

    If you see how much you have spent on temples and contrast that with the amount to save lives in humanitarian aid then the figures would speak for themselves …. I didn’t see Jesus teach about building any Temples in the NT .In fact he predicted the destruction of the only one they had …… I fear yours may go the same way …. as some people never learn ….

    You ask what does God really require of us ? Does he prefer temples to saving lives and alleviating poverty and sickness and helping the needy and destitute ?

    Answer please ?

  45. E.J.

    Dude, calm down a little, you are getting rather heated here…

    You both have good points, however I dont think you are going to agree over this one… and quoting the bible, slinging verses at one another or “bible bashing” never gets anyone anywhere…Come on you guys know this….

    Look, the church claims to buuild temples with a great deal of fine things becasue… we want to show that we are giving our best… kind of like the sacrifice of lambs, you dont use the little sick one, use use the fat healthy one to satisfy God…

    I am not saying that the spending is right I am just giving you a reason.

    E.J. If you are spending all your extra dosh on helping the poor and needy then I think you have every leg to stand on as far as being a critic on the church’s spending, however they do give A LOT of relief to the poor and needy, in fact it is recognised as the best welfare system in the world. They give aid all over the place…

    I think that you are just getting off the topic way to far though… This thread is on speaking ill of the lords anointed, not budgets within the LDS church.

    Jay… same amount of girls in our wards… maybe 15 less total families in the total building, but the same amount of girls…

  46. EJ
    (Sorry I do realize this is off topic but I must comment on this one!)

    You say, “They love the tithes , it helps adorn the temples and ye love the temples more than the needy the sick and the afflicted ..The spend comparison says it all .”

    You don’t understand the LDS faith AT ALL!!!!!!!! Look, there is a HUGE reason we have temples, and is is for saving SOULS and that seems to be a whole lot more important (to me at least) then the other stuff. We sacrifice our time to do as much work as we can for the dead so that they will be able to have eternal life. That, to us, is seriously important. You can state your opinions about this (as I’m sure you will) but this is our belief. NO ONE is making you believe this, if you don’t like it, don’t join the church. But to us it is sacred and extremly special. It is to me, and the things you say are extremly offensive. I think you should back off a bit, or at least be more considerate of our beliefs and use more tact.

    Do you even consider the fact that you may be interested in this friend of yours because of her strong morals and values BECAUSE she is LDS. I know I became a much better person since joining, and people have taken notice. I even like me much better!

    Jay has not yet left the church and may not, you are not building a strong case for your side by belittling our beliefs!

  47. Cherryn, I don’t know how old you are but the price of items increases with time. I’m in young womens and I take care of the money, we are on a very tight budget and spend it wisely!

  48. steffie

    you are over reacting ….. and over emotional ….

    The first thing you do in the temple is SAVE YOURSELF ….. you have no choice .Without obeying this you’ll not achieve your own exhaltation to goddess !

    Then if you don’t redeem the dead you can’t have your own exhaltation .You are effectively doing things for yourself , for your own cause ….

    Mt friends morals ? do you really think Mormons are more moral than others .they are not .. I hear this arogance all the time ….anyone can compare and look good with the worst of the world….

    By Bishop told me he watched a memorial service for our Princess Diana , then he said all those present will sing a few hymns and then just go off into immorality and that church is just an hour here and there of formality for them !

    How does he know this ? Its ridiculous ….. this is what mormoism does to some people , makes them self righteous and judgemental .

    I don’t fall for that nonsense from the Bishop . he is basically a pharisee sleaking like that .They always dressed nice and liked to be seen for their morals in public …. but inside ? what were they ?

  49. steffie ,

    The souls you are saving are not naked or hungry or in danger .and In fact thats only a matter of faith what you think you are doing ….. you could actually be wasting time and effort..
    They may in fact be doing very well without your temple works …. Isn’t it better to concentrate on those actually struggling in mortality ….

    cherryn

    My aid effort is massively better in proportion than the LDs church’s ! and I don’t go advertising it for PR .. ( I donate through LDS ironically :) )

    Humanitarian aid in 2004 was $95 million dollars

    membership was 9.3milliom members

    total aid is $10.12 dollars per member for the year , thats 84 cents a month per member ..

    Contrast that with tithe amount for temples etc and no evidence or figures of any more additional aid .. then tell me its the best system in the world ? Its not , thats church propaganda in my opinion ..

    I agree the church does some good but look at it in context .

  50. hi i’d just like to say joesph smiths great he makes me smle inside. do i get a response from cherryn or steffie or anyone?

  51. who is in charge is it elder joesph?

  52. Jay,

    Obey to be saved sounds good, but who are we obeying? There is nothing in the scriptures stating that tithing is a law or requirement. The GAs always talk about the law of tithing. Who’s law? Where does it say that tithing is a law?

    Cherryn,

    The Bishop’s storehouse is what is referred to as the best welfare system in the world (and to EJ’s point, I have not heard that outside the church).

    The humanitarian aid donated by the LDS church is not factored into the welfare statement.

    To EJ’s point, $95M in 2004 compared to $2B to buy and refurbish a Mall in SLC alone. The cost of that mall equals 20 years of humanitarian aid based on 2004 figures. Plus the $95M figure includes shipment of goods donated to DI that do not come out of tithing funds.

    Based on a median income of $45,000 per household, if the entire LDS membership paid a full tithing, that would be an annual uptake of $13.5B per year based on 12M members and an average 4 member household. That figure drops to $4.5B if you figure only 4M members are active.

    Then based on the lower $4.5B figure, the $95M donations to humanitarian aid would be equivalent to just over 2% of tithing donations.

  53. craig,

    GBH is in charge.

  54. I think humanitarian aid comes from fast offerings. I don’t think it comes out of tithing (I could be wrong). Your percentage may also go up if you realize that not all members tithe. Also I’m not sure if the money the Church gives to local members and non-members is included in that humanitarian aid figure, anyone know?

    I get EJ’s point that he thinks the Church doesn’t give away all the money it takes in. However, can he point to misuse of the money? Is there any abuse (i.e. leaders buying mansions, jewelry for their wives, expensive parties)? I contend that you don’t see this happening in the LDS Church. So if the money isn’t being spent wildly by GA’s then it goes to reason it is waiting to be used. Not everyone will agree on how that should be used, but it will be used. I just don’t see how it matters that the Church doesn’t empty its coffers every year.

  55. Fill in the blank. Speaking ill of the Lord’s anointed means…

  56. Hi Craig… Welcome to the group… (Jay is in charge of this blog, it is his space)

    Thank you Jay, for bringing it back to the topic…

    Speaking Ill of the lords anointed means… Any kind of criticism, regardless of accuracy or truth, anything that may shed a negative light on one of the lords anointed servants. Be they alive or dead it matters very little.

    So speaking your mind on these church topics that are sticky… we are very much speaking ILL… any form of disaggreement with any authority over you, counselors, bishops, Stake Pres, 70, GA, Prophet will be considered speaking ill.

  57. Is it speaking ill of Brigham Young to say he made racist statements? Or to say that the priesthood ban was motivated by racist ideology?

  58. Uh, no. The priesthood ban was a damnable doctrine if ever there was one.

  59. Jay,

    Off topic again, but you asked.

    Humanitarian aid contributions come from a variety of sources including tithing. Sometimes it comes from DI donations (when it is clothing that is donated) or from church farms (meat) or from the Canneries (bulk foods). All of these things figure into the $95M.

    The fast offerings go to the Bishop’s storehouse and are not included in the $95M talley. This is not for humanitarian aid but for the welfare of members.

  60. If you are wondering where the tithing funds are used in the humanitarian aid process, it is used for funding the transport of donated items and other related costs.

  61. Pam,
    I agree, but try explaining that to someone at church. They look at you like you have horns growing out of your head. I’m glad to know that at least one believing LDS member agrees with me, but do you think it is speaking ill of the Lord’s anointed to say it out loud?

    Thanks Rick. Where did you find out this information? I’d like to know how tithing and other funds are spent. What is the criteria for spending the money in each category (e.g. tithing, fast offering, mission fund, etc.)? I think this would be a good discussion for another post (coming soon!!! :).

  62. Would anyone here consider my comments on this blog speaking ill of the Lord’s anointed? Why or why not?

  63. Jay I would say no, you are seeking out truth and you have been sincere in your quest, You are balanced and kind and never accusing. I would say speaking ill is saying things like (no offense Pam) but what Pam said in her comment about her Bishop. Questioning things is different. We are encouraged, by the church, to seek out truth in ALL things!

    Craig, Hi :)

    EJ, It’s just getting old. You keep ragging on the same points, I feel you are going over board. I am extremly passionate about this church and my beliefs, when someone tries to tear them down it is hurtful and upsetting!

  64. Jay,

    I’m not sure if you get LDS conference on your TV in Tennesee, but in UT, Channel 5 is owned by the LDS church and shows General Conference on Saturday and Sunday. Between sessions, the station runs LDS faith-promoting stories about Africa, humanitarian aid, etc. They tend to show the same stories every conference. I have seen them many times. Donations are covered more during these shows than any other place I know of. That is where I got my information.

    Just in case you can get these via satellite (channel 68 on Direct TV) look for any story hosted by Carol Makita.

  65. Jay

    you said
    ” I think humanitarian aid comes from fast offerings. I don’t think it comes out of tithing (I could be wrong).”

    In our ward their is a seperate section on the donations slip for Humanitarian aid and its recorded seprerately in the uk accounts …
    I understand fasts are for local church members in need only and if unused they can go to church members elsewhere if needed .And if unused I suppose they get taken and added to the salt lake pot together with tithes …

    Its ridiculous that non of us know or can even know how or where anything is going …. this church is so secretive and treats its members like little children ..it seems we are not mature enough to understand tithe spending …..

    So how can anyone know what exactly is going on inside the church financially ….. The irony is that church members want to explain to others what is happening financially and yet they can’t !

    This is part of the reason I decided not to join or pay tithe and I will redirect my humanitarian aid and fasts elsewhere also soon as I don’t actually trust them anymore…

    steffie

    you said “I am extremly passionate about this church and my beliefs, when someone tries to tear them down it is hurtful and upsetting!”

    You’ll just have to accept that Mormonism as a theocracy and religion is not popular or favorable with many people …… I can see through all the emotional stimulation ….. In my opinion you are just a victim of emotional selling from the church ..

    I see Athiests doing great things for charity and mankind but they don’t use that as an excuse to prove their athiesm is true or appear in local newspapers like we do with helping hands days ….

    I’v attended church for two years .Its clear to me what has been taught .We are taught that if we do the ‘works’ we will be blessed .. If we pay tithe we will be better off financially , if we help others we will be blessed somehow … Everything is done for a reward in return ….some kind of blessing ..

    Jesus taught its better to give than recieve ….

    Mormonism has taught me if I give I will recieve much more in return …. it teaches a reward system for doing good and giving .

    Example … pay Tithe and then watch the windows of heaven open and even more money will be coming back my way … its simply the wrong reason to tithe …. but the church leaders will try or say anything to get people paying up …

    They should teach that tithe keeps us in a good spacious church , keeps many members in full time Jobs with good wages, keeps the BYU university running , enables property investing , enables temple and ward building …. and keeps the church as an institution financially secure ….

    Have you read what Brigham Young said about monogomy being the source of prostitution and evil etc .. or what about ‘the one wife system just degenerates the human family’ ….

    That should upset you and not my views on the church ….

    You said you read Anti stuff ? I’ve never read Anti … I just read the church’s prophets and what they taught ….

  66. That me above not ‘anonymous ‘! I’m not sure what happened …

  67. EJ
    After going back and forth with you I have come to the conclusion these conversations with you are going no where. I’m here to discuss things, not to argue. We either need to come to, agree to disagree, or I just have to stop having these discussions with you all together. I get that you don’t believe, I can accept that EJ. You are free to believe what ever you want. But shoving your views down peoples throats is rude and inconsiderate. I thought we had some very good discussions, now it is just turning hateful, and I refuse to have any part in it.

    I am in no way being taken advantage of by my church. I am fully aware of the things you bring up here. You twist things and mix quotes with opinion. That is what I consider anti. (like the preach my gospel issue) I am totally open to these discussions as long as my beliefs (and church leaders and followers) are not disrespected. I left an anti sight to come here. (Do you want to see what anti is, here is a link) http://healtheland.wordpress.com/2007/08/03/the-medias-relentless-attack-on-christianity/

    I left because the discussions were hateful.

    I am not here to push my beliefs on anyone I am here because I found a happiness that I wish ALL could have. I’m here to share that.

    Jay I am sorry that I took so much space to go off on a rant. I will keep on topic from now on!

  68. Ging back to church acounts and the problem that NON OF US know exactly or even approximately how the money is distibuted or spent ..

    Here is Gordon Hinckley responding to that

    REPORTER:

    IN MY COUNTRY, THE…WE SAY THE PEOPLE’S CHURCHES, THE PROTESTANTS, THE CATHOLICS, THEY PUBLISH ALL THEIR BUDGETS, TO ALL THE PUBLIC.

    HINCKLEY:

    YEAH. YEAH.

    REPORTER:

    WHY IS IT IMPOSSIBLE FOR YOUR CHURCH?

    HINCKLEY:

    WELL, WE SIMPLY THINK THAT THE…THAT INFORMATION BELONGS TO THOSE WHO MADE THE CONTRIBUTION, AND NOT TO THE WORLD. THAT’S THE ONLY THING. YES.

    The information belongs to those who contributed , so how come non of you actually know and are at best guessing ??

    Steffie …

    I’ve concluded different to you .

    How do you explain Gordon Hinckleys answer ….If no members know where their money is actually going or in what proportions ?he said the information belongs to you !!

  69. AND now we get back to the ORIGINAL TOPIC…

    WHAT IS SPEAKING ILL OF THE LORDS ANOINTED…

    So Jay, EJ, Steff, Rick, Pam, Me…

    DALLIN H. OAKS, LDS Quorum of the Twelve Apostles: The life of the mind can be seen to be in flat-out opposition to one’s faith.

    DALLIN H. OAKS, LDS Quorum of the Twelve Apostles: It’s wrong to criticize leaders of the church, even if the criticism is true.

    EVEN IF IT IS TRUE, anything reflecting badly on our leader should not be spoken out load… so by these terms Jay.. yes you are speaking ill… sorry.

  70. Ah, but have DHO’s statements gone thru corallary? :)

  71. I think seeking truth is different then being critical or speaking ill.

    “DALLIN H. OAKS, LDS Quorum of the Twelve Apostles: It’s wrong to criticize leaders of the church, even if the criticism is true.”

    To me this means be respectful. Maybe I’m wrong….

  72. I’ve criticised my former bishop to other members before when he made a ‘baloney’ statement after one asylum seeker member lost his job ….. he told me “EJ Be*** has lost his job but he’s not bothered because he has the Gospel ”

    It was obvious to me he was talking rubbish because Be*** was distraught ..he is here illegally working on false documents trying to send money back home to africa for his family ….

    There are some unhealthy fanatics in our ward ….

    If he enough people criticised Brigham Young he may not have got carried away on his own ego and perhaps some young teens could have been spared from conceiving his majestic posterity when in his Old age ….

    Cherryn

    Why doesn’t a church member answer Gordon Hinckleys statement that the information belongs to those who contribute ? when was the last time you got that information or any church member ?

  73. I have never gotten that info

  74. Jay:

    Re: ‘touch not my anointed…nor do my prophets any harm’. The Hebrew for ‘harm’ in this context means to physically harm or kill and destroy. It does not mean that God’s anointed ones are beyond reproach or criticism which is a differant thing entirely.

    David recognised he should not physically harm or kill King Saul, God’s anointed one, but it did not mean he could not speak up about Saul and ‘rebuke’ him when he was in the wrong.
    Later on, the prophet Nathan rebuked King David for his sin with the killing of Bathsheba’s husband. Many other prophets rebuked and criticised Kings and leaders in the OT. If the scripture you quoted meant it to be what you and numerous others in the 21st century church claim it means, then Nathan and these other prophets would have sinned when they opened their mouths. Of course he and they did not – they honoured God. The apostles spoke up even about the other apostles and openly rebuked them sometimes, such as in the case of Peter.

    The apostle Paul commended the Bereans because they listened to what he said and weighed it against scripture. He thought it absolutely right, he did not take it as a personal insult or offence. He painstakenly taught the church to guard against error and openly refute and rebuke teachers if in error – so how much more should you weigh and test teachings against the Bible and speak up where it is wrong?

    The Bible makes it clear that all Christians are God’s anointed. You do not consider yourself beyond reproach, so why should any leader?
    If any man – Brigham Young, Joseph Smith – whoever are wrong, it is right to say so.

    God commends you for questioning – he gives you a brain so use it. He rewards those who diligently seek him, and to seek him does involve questioning things and the status quo and thinking things through properly and not just swallowing them.

    There is an interesting prophecy for LDS members here:

    http://endtimespropheticwords.wordpress.com/2007/09/27/a-vision-for-all-in-the-church-of-jesus-christ-of-latter-day-saints-mormons/

  75. “DALLIN H. OAKS, LDS Quorum of the Twelve Apostles: It’s wrong to criticize leaders of the church, even if the criticism is true.”

    Have you read the book of Titus which speaks of openly refuting and rebuking false doctrine? Or what about 1 Tim 5:20 where those leaders who continue to sin or err in doctrine should be rebuked in open assembly?

  76. End times ,

    I was told by my missionaries that the prophet will never lead them astray ..Its in D&C somewhere …. This seems to suggest that they didn’t want anyone ‘challenging’ the Prophets teachings ?

    Well Brigham Young certainly did his best to lead them astray with his Adam/God teachings and denial of Jesus being begotten of the Holy Ghost .. and other quacky things ..

    So what was the point of this living prophet if he didn’t actually know what he was talking about ?

  77. >So what was the point of this living prophet if he didn’t actually know what he was talking about ?

    Exactly. As well as the others? Is indeed anything in the LDS true good, holy and righteous? Why does Mormon doctrine disagree with the Bible? Could it be because it is a false man made religion that leads man away from the true God and not towards him. Did Jesus not say many false prophets had gone and will go into the world….?

  78. If Mormonism was taught against the bible they wouldn’t have so many bible believers attending every Sunday. Your statement is much too simplistic.

  79. endtimes,

    Let’s start with the basics. What makes the Bible the authority against which religion should be judged?

    You know no more of the validity of the Bible as you do the validity of the Book of Mormon. How do you even know that Jesus ever lived? Just because it has been engrained into your human experience by family, friends, etc., does not make it so.

    Truth be told, you have no more proof of the Bible or Christianity as Mormons do of the Book of Mormon or LDS doctrine.

    LDS claim that the discrepancy between mormonism and biblical doctrine exists because the biblical doctrine is corrupt. How do you know this is actually not the case?

    Just curious.

  80. Jay

    How do you explain Brigham Young teaching adam id god and that Jesus was not begotten of the Holy Ghost ?

    You said
    “If Mormonism was taught against the bible they wouldn’t have so many bible believers attending every Sunday.”

    Mormons don’t believe the bible is correct .It’s in your Articles of Faith ….The church teaches them Mormonism and then applies any biblical versus which are relevant to them……

    You believe The Book Of Mormon , D&C and POGP in preference and as superior … You aslo believe in a living Prophet , but if years later you can discount his teachings as ‘opinion’ then whats the point of him …..

  81. Bishop Rick

    Your points are good although The bible does exist in a Historical context and not simply just an imaginary host of characters . The people mentioned are on the whole real and did exist ….

    I’m sure you have heard of Josephus mentioning a man Jesus …Whether he was anything special in God terms of course and whether the biblical narratives are miraculous interventions of God is another matter …

    The kings and rulers with whom the nation Of Israel supposedly had dealings with , are well recorded in secular History …. Cyrus , Nebuchanezzer etc Its also a history of the Nation Of Israel ….

    The bible is the authority only because religious people make it so , so its natural to compare them against the very book they profess to believe .

  82. Jay

    If Mormonism was taught against the bible they wouldn’t have so many bible believers attending every Sunday. Your statement is much too simplistic.

    That is nonsense as even you must know. How many hundreds of cults are out there all teaching contra to the Bible but claiming to be Christian. They cannot all be right! The reason is that LDS people do not examine the Bible with an open mind and an open heart to see what it says as compared to what they are actually taught to be true. People may think they believe in the Bible but not even know it.

  83. Bishop Rick

    Let’s start with the basics. What makes the Bible the authority against which religion should be judged?

    It can be examined and tested to see whether it is true or not.

    You know no more of the validity of the Bible as you do the validity of the Book of Mormon.

    Wrong! I know the Bible is true and I know the Book of Mormon is bunkum. How do I know this? By testing and weighing this against the Bible, the word of God and seeing it is an alien religion as it preaches another God and other doctrines very differant, by testing the spirits and seeing they are not of God, by speaking with LDS people and finding they have no assurance of salvation OR relationship with God, by looking at history to see how much the Book of Morom was revised (despite denials), to look at history to see how the LdDS church has lied how the revelations were recieved, by testing the fruit and teachings of Joseph Smith’s life….shall I go to speak of Masonic influences and all the other junk that you know is there?

    How do you even know that Jesus ever lived? Just because it has been engrained into your human experience by family, friends, etc., does not make it so.

    I have met Jesus personally and know Him. Have you? I have recieved forgiveness and salvation have you? I have seen miracles released such as instant physical healing have you? I speak with God and him with me. I see visions and dream dreams that are true. Do you?

    Truth be told, you have no more proof of the Bible or Christianity as Mormons do of the Book of Mormon or LDS doctrine.

    I have continously tested over 20 years the truth of the Bible and it has held true. Unlike LDS doctrine that falls apart even on the briefest of examinations.

    LDS claim that the discrepancy between mormonism and biblical doctrine exists because the biblical doctrine is corrupt. How do you know this is actually not the case

    Because I have examined it and even if we were to use Joseph Smith’s flawed translation, it still cannot denyor hide the truth of Christ’s deity which you ignore.

  84. Endoftimes

    I DO know Him. I haven’t just seen miracles I have been healed myself!!! :)

  85. Steffie ,
    How well do you know him ? Is he a polygamist then with many wives as taught by Brigham Young , Orson Pratt , Heber C Kimball and many other Prophets and Apostles of your Jesus ?

    My bishop thinks Martha will be one of his wives if she wasn’t in this life … How will that happen ? In the millenium ?

    Maybe all the single women in church could be sealed to Jesus then , that would cure their headache of Godhood ..

  86. Wow I checked out for like a minute and all of this has gone on… WooHOO… what a ride…

    EJ… below the belt man…really take cracks at the religion all you want, but personally going at Steffie is not cool.

    End Times… you are stating that your reasoning for KNOWING that your bible and faith is true the same way that Mormons claim their faith is true… by praying and asking God… You dont need to attack people for their beliefs! SHEESH…

    ANyway… the point is.. I am out of here… you guys have been great but it is just getting too much like all the rest of the hostile sites.bloggs… I have no interest in cutting others down for their belief system… This was a good jumping off place, but yep… outtie…

    Rick and Steffie… very nice chatting with ya :) Thank you…

    Jay you have been great, I will catch you true private emails… and you too EJ, thanks for all the links and emails I will speak with you privately too…

  87. Cherryn,

    I hope you find what you are looking for, and I especially hope that you find (or have found) your happiness!!!!!!!!

  88. The missed point here is that through all the debate etc. Even those of you who claim to be TBM’s seem to not dispute the sordid history of the Church, the changes in Doctrine and seemingly dismissing the racist and ignorant comments being said by church leaders up until just a few decades ago. (Dallin Oaks is still regularly making the ignorant ones) My point is not to discuss or submit more of these facts but to ask this question.

    You have no problem sending missionaries out into the world and even doing missionary work yourself. Telling what you all know is a candy coated version. Selling and marketing the claims of authority, prophets and revelation. Yet the current Church does not even come close to actually operating on that level. At best you have a Christian Church just like any other being led by men that may or may not be inspired leading based on their personal biased and beliefs. Unfortunately as TBM’s you really can’t have it both ways. It either is what it claims or it isn’t. Any spiritual witness or special Holy Ghost experiences you may think that you have had just realize there is someone else out there that has had that same witness to their delusion, does it make it true? Of course not, nor does your experience. So that leaves you with a very simple answer, instead of going to all these extensive explanations and spins to try and explain away Church History and trying to make sense of it. The only time in my entire life I could make complete sense of the Church is when I finally accepted that it was not true; Joseph Smith was not a prophet he and others made the whole thing up. Once you start using that as your answer you can begin the healing process and recover from your delusion. There is just a part of us that wants to belief and we have been taught to fear the alternative. Accept for the rejection by your TBM family there is really nothing to fear my life is so much the better having come to this realization.

  89. oops put an extra N in coventry the first time.

  90. Steffie ,

    I apologise for my recent remark … I’m sorry….

    I think I was worse than this when I met Jay on You Tube and he still invited me to his blog …. which did surprise me..

    At least Jay recognised my concerns as legitimate even if my method of expressing myself leaves alot to be desired ….

    The attacks even though seemingly personal are actually against mormonism as an Institution …..

    CoventryRM

    “The only time in my entire life I could make complete sense of the Church is when I finally accepted that it was not true;”

    This has been my experience and also many others if not all those who finally give up…

    I now realise that
    Joseph Smith marrying his followers wives , Testing them with a threat they must give up their wives to him
    Marrying 14 year olds..
    Threatening those who refused his advances
    An angel with a flaming sword ordering him to behave this way .
    His chastising of anyone who dare question him.

    Brigham Youngs talks on Monogomy being the source of Prostitution and Whoredom.
    Brigham Young threatening with hell and damnation those gilrs who objected to his polygamy and conceiving with him in his old age , them being teenagers .

    The black skin slaging off etc

    And much much more

    is really all because these were just Mad , deluded, Ego Maniacs .One small taste of power and control just led to more delusion and sense of grandeur to the point where anyone could be abused in the name of God …

    So now my mental anguish has gone and been replaced with total disrespect and contempt for these so called Prophets and Apostles of time past ..

  91. The thing I find the most interesting is how someone can argue the Bible against the Book of Mormon or visa versa. Or use any God myth to discredit another God myth. Certainly one delusion does not make more sense than another. Bill Maher put it something like this. Certainly the Mormon Church doesn’t make any less sense than any other religion (I think he actually mentioned a few by name) but it is just much easier to disprove.

  92. CoventryRM

    So we believe it’s true, so we are happy, so it’s changed our lives for the better, so we have better children and we are better spouses.

    What the heck is it to YOU what we believe????

    If you are happy where you are in your life, more power to you. But because we believe we are called “dillusional”????

    I’m so tired of people like you comming on here and insulting us. It’s one thing to tell what your beliefs are. It’s another to slam us because of ours, just because you do not agree!

    The gospel has changed my life, and I am forever grateful!

    EJ, your apology is accepted :) like I said above, it’s fine if you have different beliefs, just don’t make OUR beliefs seem less meaningful just because YOU disagree!

  93. Steffielynn

    Why do you send missionaries into the world? Do not accuse others or find fault with others for belief pushing as this is one of the main focal points of the Church. My son is in Russia on a mission; my oldest Daughter is soon to be married in a LDS temple that I will be excluded from. I served a mission was married in the temple was fully dedicated to the Gospel. I just regret that I figured it out so late in life and that I exposed and raised two children into Mormonism, luckily my youngest two weren’t as indoctrinated and have not followed that path. I have seen first hand the damage and divisiveness that the Church has on family I have witnessed and seen how dysfunctional the Mormon family unit really is. Just as you belief that you would be doing something wonderful by bringing someone into your belief system, I feel the same if I can do the opposite and bring them into mine. The only difference is that Mormons don’t seem to realize this. If you met my older children you would feel perfectly justified in taking them and encouraging them and filling in the void of them not having an LDS parent, but lets turn it around how would you feel if I did the same to one of your children if they started questioning the church and felt it my duty to help them get healthy and heal.

    The answer is simply this; I strongly believe that I am doing a great service to anyone I can convince that they are delusional and get them into rational thinking, that our world will be much better off if we can enter into an era of common sense and reason rather than faith, religion and terror. I guess that is no different that you believing that you would be saving souls with missionary work.

  94. delusion:

    “Anything that deceives the mind with a false impression, a deception, a fixed false opinion or belief that cannot be shaken by reason.”

    There was a time in my life, that I would say there is nothing someone can show me with logic or reason or evidence that would shake my faith. I had Faith and the witness of the Holy Ghost. I guess I fit the definition of “Delusion” during that stage of my life. I do not use that term to offend, but it best describes my personal perception or experience.

  95. cherryn,

    I hope it wasn’t anything I said that chased you away. Anytime religion is part of the discussion it does seem to get heated, even when that is not the intention of the poster. Send me an email if you ever want to discuss something offline.

    bishopr77@yahoo.com

  96. steffie

    I think you are going to struggle to be accepted in the way you want to be or think you deserve ……

    Like CoventryRm said . We feel we are helping Mormons or any Investigators when we try to show them that the church is not what it is claiming to be .In other words Joseph Smith was not what he claimed and the subsequent events null and void of any direction from any God .

    We would both accept people have a right to believe but the manner in which the church proslytises is actually deceptive .Important Vital Information which is critical in any decision in life is withheld fomInvestigators and even church members ….
    Families are sometimes split up when one member joins the church . Mormon families are sometimes split when one decides to leave …

    Yes I agree it does some good when it converts lifes ‘down and outs’ and makes them better and gives them a purpose , but so do JW’s and other similar religiuons …

    The fallout and Trauma of discovering the real truth is devasting in all cases …..

    Most or all of the exmormons have a similar story they all wish they had discovered what they know now much earlier …

  97. Guys there is a difference between saying,
    “Hey I don’t believe the church is true, here’s why….”

    And saying,
    “Your a complete idiot if you believe it’s true, and by the way the people you think are super, are all idiots too…”

    EJ your catholic is that right??? What if I was to say…

    “Hey EJ, the pope is a supporter of pediphiles and he is old and nasty”

    If you are a catholic, then you care about the pope, and would rather not have people, not of your particular faith, going around saying things about him! (By the way I hate typing something so hateful, it is just an example, but even so I feel bad for saying it!)

    So, think about it before you type it. It’s just not nice. And it’s certainly NOT effective, if you really TRULY care about Mormons you would NOT want to insult them!

  98. Also missionaries deliver a message to people who want to listen, they can not force people. I am very thankful for your son and his service as a missionary! I was found by missionaries!!!!

    I have seen first hand wonderful, amazing things, because of the gospel……….

    My husband and I are in love, My children are happy, and loved and the best kids ever! My children kneel in prayer and speak directly to their Father in heaven! They are being raised with morals and values. (I can remember 2 years ago contemplating at what age I would allow my kids to drink alcohol!)

    P.S.
    I can’t imagine living in a world without faith! That is not a world I want to live in!

  99. steffielynn

    Lets start at the basics, do you believe in scientific evidence or finding such as the age of the Earth or evolution, or do you believe in the literal story of 6000 years and Adam and Eve?

  100. steffielynn

    You throw out Morals and Values as if Mormons and people of Faith own those things. That is simply not true. This brings us back full circle to the above topic. Basically you are saying that you need to follow the council of the Lords anointed and Mormon Church doctrine to have a moral compass. That to me poses an interesting question. How come council from the Lords Anointed has lagged so far behind social conscience? The answer to the question above is that if these men were truly the Lords anointed then the council and the information they disseminate would not have been so off the mark on so many issues the Church would not have to continually change and alter its positions and doctrines. So I would say you have every right to question and speak however you want of these men.

  101. I honestly can say I’m open to anything. However I do believe that God is the ultimate scientist and He created a very complicated world. How and when He did it, I do not have a clue. So I guess to answer your question, I believe in both. (I do not think the bible states anywhere a specific time frame so I do not feel there is a literal 6000 years)

  102. As a whole Mormons are infact extremly moral. These values are taught in the church. I’m not saying other people that are not Mormon cannot have morals. But as a whole mormons practice what they preach. Of course we are all human and make mistakes, and Mormons are certainly NOT perfect, but from where I have been and from what I have seen they are close :)

  103. steffielynn

    I accept your belief is sincere .I have been around Mormons for two years now …However I don’t accept the way the church hides its real history and the way missionaries are sharing a superficial version of events …… When I first heard about Joseph Smith I had compassion for him and could relate to it all , however when I realised what he really did and the real Joseph Smith then I realised that I may have in anger been in that mob myself which went after him in the end … he created alot of enemies .You can’t go round lying ,causing hardship ,asking for other mens wives and destroying printing presses without some kind of repercussion ….

    Even my missionaries agreed they would kill/thump anyone trying to take their wives , and even the Prophet ! Would your husband agree to giving you to the prophet ? Josephs behaviour is ridiculous at best and sinister at worst ….. This is where our dislike comes in … Its not you or other members , but the church as an Institution and its highest leaders …. When Joseph was killed he was doing the masonic distress call ( see Rough stone rolling book) . he had given an oath in the Masonic Initiation ceremony to suffer his life be taken if he gave away the secrets ! and he gave them away ,He introduced them to the mormon temple Endowment .

    You may have “been found ” by the missionaries .. but many people are being misled and thats why the real truth should be given at the beginning ….

    I was asked ‘does it feel like we have found you ‘? I said yes until I leaned the real history !

    I was brought up Catholic yes …. You can say what you like about the pope , it would not matter . If he is a Pedophile or harbours them then he should exposed ….
    I complained to the Catholic Church ( my Priest) when they were harbouring pedophiles ….

    Mormonism is not except from this scrutiny…. In church I heard a member say that Celibacy causes the child abuse from priests .. I had to rebuke that straight away and inform him that I am celibate and don’t abuse children ….

    Mormons are taught to be celibate until married like I was taught …..

    My Bishop was telling me he was watching the Princess Diana memorial tribute on TV ,then he said those who attended would just sing a Hymn , a quick prayer and then go off into the world again without a thought for God etc but we are different , we live our religion …

    But how does he know the people who attended the Memorial ? Its so arrogant ! and they say oh we don’t judge others etc blah blah . The western economic system of producation and technology has not been built up by righteous spirits in Mormon Tabernacles .Its been done by the in your belief the Les Valiants … The greatest charities in the world are by the less valiants also ! :)

    The whole Mormon religion was built on accusing other churches of being of satan and their creeds an abomination , their professors corrupt etc … This isn’t true anyway !

    It was Joseph Smiths way of starting his own church .. there were many new movements started with this attitude in mind … JW’s especially ..

    I notice that Mormonism actually makes some people Arrogant , especially the Priesthhood doctrine .. This is why Brigham Young and the others behaved in the way they did , they thought they could do what they like because they were chosen , lect , of some kind of Royalty…….they didn’t actually have any authority or approval to impose polygamy on all those young girls and ruin their earthly Christ earned rights to live in a more dignified manner ..

    It was a cult when it started just like David koresh of Waco texas fame …. and still has some of the same attributes now ……

    In the future it will become a church like all the others …. as it abandons one by one its false beliefs …

    Its already done a U turn on Polygamy and Blacks ..

    Boof Of Mormon will be next … as the evidence of its literal historicity is overwhelming … The church can’t keep members in ignorance for ever .. its a common factor of more and more people leaving ……

    I can have faith in God and the story of the redeemer Jesus Christ and enough to inspire me to act accordingly .What I can’t do is believe in civilisations that didn’t exist . Its too much a strain ! lol

    Ps I’m intending on Keeping Word Of wisdom whatever happens .I really can understand how you feel Steffie I want to feel the same way myself .. and I love the concept of Baptism For the Dead even though I think it not really necessary !

    I only ever got half a testimony I guess :) If the history was as it should be then I would have joined .

  104. I meant evidence against the Literal Historicity of The Book Of Mormon is overwhelming …
    I really wish it was different ….

    It worries to accept the church is true because

    1 ..I have to accept that my Bishop is literally Gods voice for our ward ..
    2 Gordon hinckley lying to the media is OK !
    3 I can raise the dead , but if i don’t , its because i wasn’t worthy enough ..
    4 I may be called to be a polygamist ..
    5 Joseph Smith marrying other mens wives and 14 year olds amongst the teens is Ok and from God ?
    6 Telling women to obey the men is from God ?
    7 Banning blacks from temple blessings is from God as a punishment for less valiancy perhaps ? It wasn’t just a priesthood thing , women were not allowed in either .

    I wish non of it was there ..

  105. Let’s start with science and evolution. You stated a position and belief that is common among many thinking and intelligent Christians. However such a position is inconsistent with Mormon doctrine Mormons simply do not have this luxury.

    The Peal of Great Price considered to be pure revelation from God to Joseph Smith uncorrupted by man or mistranslated over the years contains information from God There are many passages in the books of Abraham and Moses that are in complete conflict with evolution of any sort.

    Mormon doctrine claims that the Garden of Eden was here on the American Continent, and that all the Prophets until Noah live on this continent and that Noah actually constructed the Arch here as well, which means as a Mormon you have to believe in a literal global flood.

    This is just a sampling from what is found in actual Mormon Doctrine. Start reading what the Church Leaders have said about Darwin over the pulpit and in its publications. Brigham Young said much about how the earth came to be over the pulpit. Take also into consideration that Brigham said “I have never yet preached a sermon and sent it out to the children of, that they may not call scripture” Journal of Discourses Volume 13 page 95. So that would make the following by Brigham Young scripture:

    “Though we have it in history that our father Adam was made of the dust of this earth, and that he knew nothing about his God previous to being made here, yet it is not so; and when we learn the truth we shall see and understand that he helped to make this world, and was the chief manager in that operation.
    He was the person who brought the animals and the seeds from other planets to this world, and brought a wife with him and stayed here. You may read and believe what you please as to what is found written in the Bible. Adam was made from the dust of an earth, but not from the dust of this earth. He was made as you and I are made, and no person was ever made upon any other principle.” Journal of Discourses Volume 3 319.
    There are plenty of other talks and doctrines. What I have to say or present should not ever be found to be offensive as I will only use source material published and accepted by the Church itself.

  106. Faith

    The Missionaries sold you on a story, a narrative, based on Prophets and Revelations. That is clearly not the Church of today. As you spend more time and become more familiar with the Church I am sure you will start to see and understand this. I was a faithful member until the age of 35 had done all things you are currently doing, being proud of my kids testimonies and prayers at such a young age even though they did not have any real concept of what they were saying. Choosing for them they were good little Mormons. I will admit it makes for easier parenting. I wouldn’t trade the challenges I face now from the two free thinking children for the ease of parenting I had with the older two. From what I have seen in your posting you were searching and the missionaries found you at a vulnerable time in your life and it has filled a void. I am sure that feels wonderful and has been a positive for you. That still does not make it true. As a missionary we were taught to seek out people that had recently been married or had just given birth or had a death in the family. We then would play them this film called “families are forever” hit on their emotions and sell them a bag of promises about families and the afterlife. Make all these claims. Did I feel the spirit, absolutely, you would have to be dead inside to not have an emotional and or physiological response to such stimuli. Still that does NOT make it true. There are plenty of people that have faith in all sorts of things because of such experiences and responses. Have you seen how the fundamentalist Muslims teach their children to be suicide bombers? You should watch the video on the web. How do you feel about the following story?

    I, Abdur-Raheem, crept into the city and went forth toward the position of an infidel. And I was led by Allah, not knowing beforehand the things which I should do. Nevertheless I went forth, and as I came near unto the position of an infidel I beheld an american soldier, and he had fallen to the earth before me, for he was drunk with whiskey. I was able to take his M16 I was constrained by Allah that I should kill this infidel; but I said in my heart: Never at any time have I shed the blood of man. And I shrunk and would that I might not slay him. Allah said unto me again: Behold I hath delivered him into your hands. Yea, and I also knew that he had sought to take away mine own life; yea, and he would not hearken unto the teaching of Allah; and he also had taken away our property. Allah said unto me again: Slay him, for I hath delivered him into your hands; Allah slayeth the wicked to bring forth his righteous purposes. It is better that one man should perish than that a nation should be over run with capitalist infidels. When I, Abdur-Raheem, had heard these words I did obey the voice of Allah, and took the Infidel by his hair and I shot off his head with his own gun.

    Muslims have Faith and believe to a much greater extent than we can probably imagine in this country. Does that make it right and true? Based on the criteria you are using it does. Take the story of Nephi slaying Laban in the Book in which you say is a place to find your morals and values. Wasn’t Nephi just a terrorist in that story? The only reason Nephi is a hero to you in this story is that you believe like he did that God actually told him to do it. That is what Faith in God’s has done in this world. The Morals and Values you speak of have come forth from humanity and social conscience despite of religious faith not these books that are full of violence rape and power.

  107. ConventryRM

    I do agree with you ..Missionaries do stumble across people at vulnerable moments in their life and then its believed that they were prepared by the Lord for them ?

    It works the same with Jehovahs Witnesses .In the past I’ve had one or two explain to me how they transformed their life from being Drunkards gamblers etc to serving Jehovah …. I would reply by saying that its their own fault for being silly in the first place and that it doesn’t mean their religion is true except for that it was the circumstance which changed them …. fear of God does motivate changes ..

    I can admit that Mormonism has changed me for the better …. ie makes good men better ! :) primarily because of the influence … I tried Word Of Wisdom hoping for a spiritual connection as promised but instead only my sporting activity times improved dramatically so I’m happy to keep it for health reasons .

    But that is not what they are about .They want Baptisms and converts really…

    There is also a danger that Mormonism could make me arrogant .. I’ve never liked the ” I Know this Church is True and the only true one etc ”

    I’ve tried nearly everything .I’ve read the Book Of Mormon prayed etc and no supernatural confirmation as first promised .I’ve since realised that not many in church has had any real confirmation of anything …. its more just a feeling an emotion…Well as long as I didn’t know the Real History then it would feel right to me also ..

    What made you loose belief in thc Mormon Church and at what point ? what first started the doubt or questioning ?

    My only experience of being ‘brain washed’ or ‘mind conditioned’ was with Jehovahs Witnesses as a youth !

    If you could email me , I’d be very interested to hear your story …..cheers

    elderjoseph@hotmail.co.uk

    Steffie

    You have much ‘oppostion’ on here ….. there is a saying in Mormonism .. we need oppositition to grow ? :)

  108. I have written quite a bit of my story I will go and make some edits and update it. What part of England are you in?

  109. It’s true, opposition does strengthen me!

    EJ Have you thought about the fact that you HAVE been blessed as promised? Sometimes we are too self absorbed and we do not realize that the Lord has blessed us. I would say good health is a HUGE blessing, as well as using time more wisely, a “change for the better”….HELLO!!! These are all blessings!

    So I have a question for you both. If this church is not the church for you, then what church do you plan on joining?

    Jay I was wondering the same thing, have you found a church that you like (or have you sought any out?)

    So my husband is leaving tommorrow so I will not be able to respond for at least a day, maybe two.

    Steff

  110. The Church of rational thinking common sense and reason, or if you will Atheism. The people I have found in this world that have the highest values and morals, that accept and love humanity because they understand it just plain makes sense and is in the best interest of all living things. Doing it not because of a fear of damnation or any promises of a reward in the afterlife but they have just figured it out. The inner peace and spiritual enlightenment you have, once you understand this very true concept, blows away any Temple Experience, Missionary Experience, religious experience I have ever had 10 to 1. You already have it in you. You already pick and choose what is good in the Bible and in religion otherwise you would still be stoning neighbors, mistreating women, etc… The heaven and hell talked about in religion is just a metaphor for what you can create in the here and now.

  111. steffielyn

    Blessings ? I knew before that giving up alcohol and coffee would lead to better health , but the other big incentive was the promise in
    D&C 89:19 ‘And shall find wisdom and great treasures of knowledge, even hidden treasures; ‘

    Where are my treasures of knowledge , even hidden treasures ?

    I’ve been told to keep coming to church , My ward missionary told me he took 3 years ! But I’m on my way out really . I can’t reconcile all the history and nonsense and abuse of women in polygamy especially of the past …..

    They will have to accept that despite my commitment of the past two years , reading of the Book Of Mormon etc that my answer is that ‘Its not what It claims to be ‘ ..The people are nice , I am nice but I can’t accept the LDS Apostles and Prophets and other leaders .. they are all a bit delusional and lie to us ….( Lying for the Lord)

    In joint High Priest and elders quorom meeting our bishop reminded them that they all had the power to raise the dead !! so live worthily of that incase they are needed to perform miracles …

    If this is Gods power in their hands, then from what I’ve seen over the last two years I won’t be calling them ….

    I couldn’t believe what I was hearing … I’ve asked them to raise my father from the grave and no one has accepted that challenge yet ..

    “So I have a question for you both. If this church is not the church for you, then what church do you plan on joining? ”

    Its a fair point you make but you possibly want to believe that only one church is true ( fullness of truth then )and I would disagree with that .Thats what alot of ‘cults’ think …. JW’s , Moonies and others possibly ..

    I hope that catholicism doesn’t have that mindset but instead affirm that they beieve in the tradition as it was from the apostles and early fathers and through the catholic church ….

    Joseph Smith did get his New Testament cannon thanks to Constantine’s gathering together of early Christians ( catholic church )…. and many centuries later the great protestant revolt brought it into public hands ….

    and then Joseph condemned them all through his first vision ..

  112. You should read the book Constantine’s sword. Despite all the horrific things done under the name of Christianity by the Catholic church after reading that book I formed the opinion that if you are going to subscribe to Christianity the Catholic church makes the most sense. When it comes right down to it ALL Christian Churches are run by people trying to make the most sense of it all. The Catholics have been doing it the longest. However under this latest Pope I am not sure, before that I think they were pretty close to softening up on the Deification of Christ concept.

  113. EJ
    Not only am I curious as to which church you find to be closest to the truth, but I am also curious to know if you realize all christian churches have “warts” in their history. Especially the Catholic church. You are so against the LDS church because of the history, how can you accept all the horrible things the Catholic church has done????

    CoventryRM

    check out this blog, they are conversing about how many ex mormons turn atheist.

    http://ldstalk.wordpress.com/2007/09/26/we-push-them-out-into-what/

    I just hope that whatever it is that ya’ll find makes you happy, and that you have happy marriages and happy kids, etc…… :)

  114. You clearly do not understand Mormonism if you truly believe you can make the statement you just did. I do think my definition of Delusion is accurate. It seems any real evidence or reason presented you sidestep. You argue both sides of the fence. You seem to the position of “I am right – what I want to be so is so,” The Church makes claims of having a Prophet and modern revelation an active mouth piece to God. The whole purpose of the Restoration was because of ALL the other Churches sordid history. It makes absolutely no sense to use that argument in defense of Mormonism in fact you have just basically admitted it is just what we are saying it is “A Church created and run by Men” then the history along with all the other churches makes complete sense.

    Your last paragraph is what I call Mormon smugness and the fake nicey nice. It is very condescending and very transparent, you are learning well.

  115. steffielynn

    I don’t accept that all the horrible things Catholicism have done is from God … The Mormon church however believe and masquerade Joseph Smiths and Brigham Youngs polygamous behaviour as sanctioned of God with his divine approval and is still around as doctrine , but I believe it will go eventually and monogomy become the celestial order and not polygamy .. Which women can accept polygamy in the church today … NON I’ve talked with ..Its an injustice and needless fear on them and it needs consigning to the rubbish bin …

    Any faith can look good in comparison to Catholicisms past but The Mormon one should not have a bad history because it was being Run by Jesus Christ himself from the start while the others were of Satan according to Mormon Leaders ..

    The Mormon church is just a good religious social club in my view if you can accept it for that ! If people are seriously worrying that they aren’t doing enough then its not going to be that good a place for them .I could go along with it as a fraternitity but not take the lessons seriously anymore … in fact on occasion I cause a flap in Elders Quorom when I remind them exactly what they really believe lest they try skirt around some issues :)

    If I’d been a TBM and discovered what I have , then maybe I couldn’t handle it the same ….

  116. […] fill those of you in who were not in on the conversation here is the link http://mormonstalk.wordpress.com/2007/09/19/speaking-ill-of-the-lords-anointed/  and here is my last comment […]


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