Posted by: Jay | January 28, 2008

President Hinckley passes

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Last night I received a text message from my brother-in-law saying that President Hinckley had passed. I know he is in a better place with his wife. I will miss his jokes that made Priesthood session a little more bearable and the openness he showed by speaking on talk shows and with reporters. Farewell good man!

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Responses

  1. How do you know that he has gone to a better place?

  2. He was a good person. I think God knows his heart. I imagine he is happy to be finished with the trials of this world.

  3. He wasn’t a good person.
    The bible makes that very clear.

    (Isaiah 64:6) “But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.”

    (Romans 3:10-12) “As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
    {11} There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
    {12} They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.”

    I find it a real shame that you believe Gordon Hinckley went to a better place based on his own goodness, and didn’t bother to mention the cross of Jesus Christ.

    (1 Corinthians 1:18) “For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.”

    You are very correct when you say that God knows his heart, here is what God says about it.

    (Jeremiah 17:9) “The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?”

    Chris
    Jesus is LORD!

  4. I knew someone would jump on me for calling him good:)

    He was a kind man with a great wit. Is that a better way of putting it?

    I find it a real shame that you believe Gordon Hinckley went to a better place based on his own goodness, and didn’t bother to mention the cross of Jesus Christ.

    I guess I assumed that a Christian reading what I wrote would know that no one goes to heaven expect by the grace of Jesus Christ. I’m sorry I didn’t make that clear enough. I don’t think what I wrote implies that he made it there base on “his own goodness”. If that’s where he is, I’m not his judge I can only make assumptions. But if I was I would say he’s in heaven.

    Jesus is LORD!

    Amen!

  5. Oh, SNAP!!!

    Jay, you just got served. That was a serious self-righteous scriptural beat-down!

    Wait, I just read a little in my Bible and maybe Jay and President Hinckley are OK after all. I mean, Paul calls his brethren “full of goodness” in Romans 15:14. Why would he say that when he just told the Romans that no one was good? I just don’t understand.
    And the Bible seems to teach (albeit through my warped Mormon understanding) that goodness is a fruit of the Spirit in Galatians and Ephesians. Man, it’s really confusing.

    Maybe, just maybe . . . maybe Paul was talking about the natural, non-spiritually reborn man in those scriptures. Maybe that’s why Jesus told us to be born again (John 3:17)? I don’t know, I’m just a Mormon.
    Maybe Mr. Hinckley did have the Spirit, and its subsequent fruit of goodness. I guess we’ll never know. Maybe all the good stuff Mr. Hinckley did in a life filled with service to others was due to something other than a manifestation of fruits of the Spirit, and a manifestation of his faith in Christ–The LORD. Actually, I doubt that. I’d bet President Hinckley DID have a saving faith in Christ, that enabled him to be saved by the grace of Jesus Christ–The LORD.
    It’s likely true given his works. Hey, don’t get mad at me saying it, get mad at James.

  6. I take my post back. Jay’s response is much better!

  7. Paul calls his brethren “full of goodness” in Romans 15:14. Why would he say that when he just told the Romans that no one was good? I just don’t understand.

    But if you look closely Chris’ Bible doesn’t say good it says “righteous”. Big difference Ben:)

    Even though you’re a “warped” Mormon, I still enjoyed that post. But you should take it easy on Chris he seems to be the “if you don’t believe what I do you’re going to hell” type. This usually take time and much personal interaction with different kinds of people to get over. And of course and open mind and loving heart doesn’t hurt either.

  8. JAY WRITES:
    But you should take it easy on Chris he seems to be the “if you don’t believe what I do you’re going to hell” type.

    MY RESPONSE:
    Jesus says in Mark 16:16 that he who believes not shall be damned, he is referring to the gospel. Also in 2 John God states that the one abiding not in the doctrine of Christ has not God.
    Paul also writes that if any man preach any other gospel, let him be accursed.
    So i am not one to believe that false prophets and unbelievers who do not believe the gospel will have eternal life, i agree with the bible which says “he who believes not shall be damned”.

    Chris
    Jesus is LORD!

  9. Mormons and Gordon Hinckley do not believe that salvation is conditioned on the work of Christ alone, therefore they do not believe the gospel.

    Mormons do not believe that salvation is conditioned on the atoning blood and imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ alone, therefore they do not believe the gospel.

    In fact, i think i’m right in saying that mormons don’t have any idea about imputed righteousness.

    God will draw out all of his elect who are currently in false religion and give them eyes to see, ears to hear and they will repent of ever believing that salvation is conditioned in any way, even to the slightest degree on their own good works, or free will or obedience to certain laws, and they will believe that Christ Jesus met all of the conditions for the salvation of his people.

    Chris
    Jesus is LORD!

  10. Mormons and Gordon Hinckley do not believe that salvation is conditioned on the work of Christ alone, therefore they do not believe the gospel.

    Mormons do believe in the gospel of Jesus Christ, just not the way you interpret it. The circular reasoning of works for salvation is only important to those that wish to distinguish between themselves and the LDS faith and in reality is just a smoke screen. No matter how many good works a Mormon does they will not be “saved” without the Christ’s grace. The Bible is clear on that point. It is also clear that God gives us commandments that, as loving disciples we obey. Mormons are baptized, do temple work, and give service because they love God, they don’t actually think that these things will save them.

    Also in 2 John God states that the one abiding not in the doctrine of Christ has not God.

    And who determines Christ’s doctrine? You are interpreting Christ’s gospel through the lense of the Nicene council, which selected your books from the many that were written by the original Christians. They left out the things they thought were not part of Christ’s gospel. So we are left to interpret what they gave us, thus the many Christian denominations and sects that we have today. How do you know that your sect has got it right?

    So i am not one to believe that false prophets and unbelievers who do not believe the gospel will have eternal life…

    You are perfectly within your rights to have that opinion.

    God will draw out all of his elect who are currently in false religion and give them eyes to see, ears to hear and they will repent of ever believing that salvation is conditioned in any way…

    So is it your opinion that God requires nothing of us except to accept the gospel of Christ as you see it?

  11. –But if you look closely Chris’ Bible doesn’t say good it says “righteous”. Big difference Ben:)

    That is because his version of the Bible is a false version. The only version of the Bible acceptable in God’s eye is MY version of the Bible; any other interpretation is damned. My Bible says so. And I don’t even mean the King James Version, I mean my personal copy of the Bible that I read and own.

  12. “Mormons and Gordon Hinckley do not believe that salvation is conditioned on the work of Christ alone, therefore they do not believe the gospel.

    God will draw out all of his elect who are currently in false religion and give them eyes to see, ears to hear and they will repent of ever believing that salvation is conditioned in any way, even to the slightest degree on their own good works, or free will or obedience to certain laws, and they will believe that Christ Jesus met all of the conditions for the salvation of his people.”

    Chris, let me tell you that one of my pet peeves is when someone (especially someone who knows less about Mormonism than I do) tries to tell me what I believe.

    Let me also tell you that (despite what you would like to believe) the LDS church teaches–and as a Mormon, I believe–that we are saved NOT through works, but through the grace of God, and faith in Christ.

  13. When will Utah become part of the United States and not the State of Deseret! US Code Title 4 Section 7(m) is specific on what a Governor is allowed to do with respect to the US Flag. Governor Huntsman is in direct violation of the US Code. The Flag Code does not allow the Governor to order the US Flag to be lowered for a religious leader. When the Governor of Utah ignores the US Code in deference to the Mormon Prophet’s passing it just shows that a Mormon’s allegiance is to the Mormon Priesthood not the laws of the land. Here in Nauvoo, Illinois, the Mormon Church is flying the US Flag at half staff on the Temple and Visitors Center without permission to do so. The Governor of Illinois has issued no proclamation to lower the Flag to half staff. During this time that the Mormon Church commemorates the “Exodus” from Nauvoo in 1846, stating it was because of “religious persecution,” accurate history shows it was due to defiance of United States, Illinois, and Hancock County Law. It’s now 162 years later and the Mormon Church still places itself above the law!

  14. The Flag Code does not allow the Governor to order the US Flag to be lowered for a religious leader.

    I didn’t know there was a code for the flag or that the LDS Church lowered the flag to respect GB Hinckley. That’s interesting. But I imagine that if people can get away with burning the flag in D.C. rallies, flying it at half mast to respect someone you honor probably isn’t considered bad either.

    During this time that the Mormon Church commemorates the “Exodus” from Nauvoo in 1846, stating it was because of “religious persecution,” accurate history shows it was due to defiance of United States

    So being trapped in a small room with no way of escape by hundreds of men with guns and shot until dead without a fair trial isn’t persecution? It doesn’t really matter if Joesph was guilty, he didn’t deserve to die that way.

    I think accurate history is much more complicated than you suggest and actually falls somewhere in between your view and the LDS version. LDS people were treated unfairly, some of that was brought on by their own actions, but in a just world their exodus would have never happened the way it did.

  15. Sorry for your loss. I have several close Mormon friends and they are still upset about this and dealing with it pretty hard.

  16. Ruby,
    Thanks for your condolences. Most LDS members are happy for Gordon B. Hinckley because he is now with his wife and released from his worldly cares. Since I didn’t know him personally it is hard for me to feel any real sense of loss by his passing. This doesn’t mean that I won’t miss his unique sense of humor, but all good things must have an end.

  17. I’m sorry for the hateful posts. I cringe when I see the so-called followers of Christ opportunistically intruding on people’s sadness, or picketing funerals of people they don’t care for. The death of a people’s beloved prophet should be an opportunity for extending the hand of fellowship and condolence; is this not Christlike behavior? Jesus didn’t run around yelling hateful things at people to “make” them become His followers, nor did he badger them in the name of “evangelism.” But let us not forget that for every proselytizing purple-faced Christian screaming “Repent! Jesus is Lord!” there is a proselytizing Mormon (or 2!) knocking on someone’s door. All this “my way is the only way” stuff can only be hurtful. It stops dialog dead in its tracks.

    As for Hinckley, no one can say with any certainty what happens after the body dies. But in my heart, I feel there is more to life than this manifest universe, and I feel that Gordon Hinckley is in God’s loving hands now, whether or not He is the God GH expected to see. —And I am absolutely sure that when I die, the experience will be nothing like what I expect, so I have nothing to go on but hope (and hope is much more resilient than faith, by its very nature). That hope is for all people, everywhere.

    Gordon Hinckley, Rest in Peace and Go with God.

  18. SunnyD,
    I too cringe when I meet professed Christians that cannot have a respectful conversation. Most of the time they justify their words and actions by pointing to Christ’s overturning of the moneychangers tables. Unfortunately for them Christ was perfect and could control himself. I don’t believe that most people that choose this method have that same control. Most “Christians” that I see take this approach are out of control and end up saying something that is flat wrong. I think for most of us imperfect humans this approach is never a good one. On rare occasion it may be warranted, but people that make a habit of it should really reexamine the motives. They need to remember Christ’s teaching of love your enemies, forgive 7 X 7, etc.

    I think the only difference between purple-faced Christians and LDS missionaries is that the latter tend not to be confrontational (they are instructed not to be). Agree with there theology or not, rational people must admit this is a much better approach. The other (flying off in a rage, telling people they are going to hell) is often inspired ultimately by frustration and insecurity of their own beliefs. After all, if what you believe is true why should it matter that someone says something else. Truth always wins, error dissolves into nothing. You seem like someone that knows that already.

    Thanks for being one of the reasonable ones:)

  19. Hi Jay, I’m not though! A Christian, I mean. I was, but I’m not. I didn’t turn my back on Christianity, but my spiritual universe expanded to include it but not be limited by it. It’s still part of me and it is my native “spiritual language,” but I don’t see Christianity as the only way to know God. I stopped calling myself a “Christian” out of respect for Christianity, because I became aware that I mean something very different by that term than Christians usually do.

    Joseph Campbell once said that if everyone understood religions as various metaphors for the same indescribable truth, we wouldn’t be so ready to die for our beliefs, or to kill for them.

  20. Christian or not it is nice to be able to talk to people that can take a broader view of things. Anyone can be difficult to talk to if they are unwilling to see things from a different point of view. I’ve met a lot of people here and elsewhere that know how to be respectful, but honest and I enjoy my conversations with them.

  21. I was saddened when I heard that Gordon Hinckley had died. This is a man I knew nothing about all my life up until nearly 2 and half years ago .

    As much as I ‘hate/dislike’ the early church founders , I did like Gordon Hinckley and the very many church members I met .

    I watched the last 4 conferences and used to wonder how come they can’t see what I see , or why do they not have difficulty with the early church and its history and other problems….

    This is what confuses me about Mormonism ? All those really nice and sincere members …… I’m still in touch with many of them .Of course the church is trying to bring me back and I know they are sincere ,but it doesn’t look likely , maybe they know something I don’t know and have seen my kind of situation before and think I’ll get the testimony somehow ?

    I think The passing of Gordon Hinckley has put the final closure on the LDS church for me .

    I’ll probably not watch any more conferences incase I get too attached to any of the newly promoted/called leaders .

    There is something I think we all feel sorry for when seeing Old people trying to function as normal and keep going and struggling under the most difficult conditions which arise with old age and Gordon Hinckley was just the type of man you had to like ..

    I cried watching his funeral .I’ll miss him .I thought deep inside that he too maybe was probably wondering why the church history and doctrine is such that he needed to subtly ‘mislead’ the public by some of his answers in his many media Interviews ..

    I often wonder what would have happened if he would have resigned from the church ? :)

    He did say in an Ensign Article once that if the Church is not true then they are all involved in a massive fraud ! lol

  22. He did say in an Ensign Article once that if the Church is not true then they are all involved in a massive fraud !
    This is his sense of humor speaking.

    What a incredible man that was such a Christ-like example for us. There is no doubt in my mind that he is in heaven for the work he has done for everyone– LDS members or not.

    EJ– I think you should still watch conference; President Monson was very close to President Hinckley. They served for so many years together. I hope you still watch it and will believe in this gospel.

  23. I think GBH was a good man, but I can’t help but wonder what the prophets are thinking…

    Why didn’t HF call me directly to be prophet?
    Why have I really never spoken directly to HF or Jesus?
    My experience is really no different from any other member.
    I have been prophet for x number of years but have not received any new revelation.

    These are things I have pondered for years. I remember listening to Paul H Dunn at BYU. He was my favorite GA at the time. During a Q&A portion of his talk, he was asked by a student if the GAs have visitations, visions, and audible conversations with HF and/or Jesus.

    His answer was that they don’t, but rather have moments of inspiration just like we do (meaning the students present).

    That moment was a subtle turning point for me as I had always believed, up to that point, that the GAs did actually have conversations with HF and Jesus, that the heavens were open and that Jesus literally ran the church, speaking regularly to his current disciples (GAs).

    Just a few of my thoughts.

  24. I had a RM roommate once (I was still pre-mission) that thought that some Mission Presidents had seen Jesus and God. He thought he was revealing some great secret to us “Younger” guys.

    I think Dunn’s response to you is interesting. When I was on my mission, my Mission President told us about a conversation he had with Elder Richard G. Scott. He had insisted on meeting each missionary face to face. Elder Scott told my MP that he could tell if there was some sin in a missionaries life by looking into his eyes. Like he could see the light in your eye or soul or something. He reported to us that Elder Scott had told him that one missionary he looked at (out of ~250 of us) needed to be interviewed right away. My MP said that Elder Scott was right; the missionary had sinned and needed to repent. He then told us that when a GA is called they are “mentored” by an Apostle and taught how to do this. Back then I actually believed they could look into my soul. Now I think it’s more probable that a person full of guilt just reveals it by their facial expressions.


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