Mormons talk

Jay,

I felt a little bad reading your bio. I hope you can remain a believer. I think most educated, intelligent LDS people have gone through the same things you have. Some leave (and most who do, in my experience, become atheists) and others remain with their testimonies stronger than ever. No one can give you any magic answers or information that’s going to change anything for you. It all comes down to faith. Remember Jay, most of history is 98% hearsay. in the end, for me, going by the Spirit is what I count most reliable. I hope for the sake of your wife and kids, you can regain the faith you once had. That will make a big difference in their lives.

Jay,

If I were your father, your wife, or someone close to you, I’d probably counsel you to not get too caught up in all the mysteries and past history. First of all, I don’t think very much of it is reliable. Second, the very nature of religion is built on the principle of faith. You’ll drive yourself crazy trying to find all the answers, because you’ll never find them. There’s a lot at stake: you have a sweet wife and family that married you, in large part, for your faith. Perhaps I’m wrong, but I think if you continue down this path, you’ll lose your faith, become an atheist (how can you go to another religion that teaches things like the trinity?), and lose everything that means the most to you (your wife and family). I’ve seen it FAR too much. Honestly, I’d probably close down your blog and move-on to better things. I’ve found your blog extremely interesting, though I’m up here typing you when I should be downstairs with my family! I’ll probably not come to your blog anymore, because I’m fearful it will get addictive for me! (Trying to apply Oaks’ great talk “good, better, best”.)

Thanks.

Jay,

In my opinion, the reason the Church doesn’t take the time to explain everything is b/c it’s mostly (and I agree) an enormous waste of time. You could expose every nook and cranny of the church and its history and still have some who believe and some who don’t. I used to be heavily into all this on my mission. I served in an area (Washington) that was heavily populated by Ed Decker’s group and I used to love to bash with them. I’ve come full circle and now am completely bored with those issues and realize that there’s certain answers I can’t satisfactorily answer (in science or religion) and I’m completely comfortable with now focusing on positive things. Jay, if you continue on this path . . . I predict in a few short years you’ll be in a much different place than you are now (out of the church, an atheist (b/c trust me, the questions are just as bad trying to prove that Jesus was the Son of God and that God is real . . . just wait till you start reading those history books!) . . . you’ll also try to stay friendly with the church, but deep down, you’ll despise it. It starts with saying little negative things about your bishopric and local leaders and then it will turn into an all-out assault. Perhaps I’m wrong, but I think you’re on the edge of a cliff ready to drop off into a whole new world. You may see it as spreading your wings under the guise of “intellectual honesty” or some other term, but I see it as bringing you nothing but heartache.

Jay,

Good response on all points. You seem like a humble, nice dude. It’s been over 15 years since I rec’d my doctorate and it sounds like you’re getting close to finishing yours. I remember when I graduated, one of the speakers spoke on in all religions as people became more educated, they became less religious . . . except for Mormons. With Mormons, the more educated, the more religious. With one exception: those who went on to get their doctorates . . . then the curve wasn’t as high. That was many years ago, so I don’t know if that’s still true today. I’m grateful to be educated and still (and more so than ever) firmly in the faith. And perhaps you’re right that it would have been better for the leaders to handle your situation differently, but they’re just tryin’ their best and will likely have a lot more blunders a long the way. I’m continually praying that my ward/stake will forgive me for all my shortcomings. I can tell from your response that you already know that too, which was good to read.

I have never been LDS, but I’ve been a fundamentalist Christian. (Plus I have lots of LDS family members—Aunt, Uncle, many cousins and grand-cousins, and attended Primary with my cousins when young.)

That being said: I also am highly educated (Ph.D.), and as I became more and more educated, I suppose my Christian Baptist friends would say I became less and less religious, but the fact is, I became more so. Only I became more ‘religious’ in ways my Baptist friends could not understand as ‘religious.’ I became open, curious, unafraid of learning new truths, filled with more love, tolerance, understanding–in short, more “spiritual” as opposed to “religious.”

I now feel comfortable attending just about any religious service that is open to having visitors. I can always find something to relate to. I have conducted choirs in synagogues, have sung in High Holy Days professional synagogue choirs, have worked as music director in two Episcopal churches, two American Baptist churches, and currently in a Unitarian Universalist church. I have been a member of none of them, yet I have been an effective minister in all of them.

I see religions as spiritual languages. You wouldn’t say that Spanish is “better” than French just because it has a different grammar or vocabulary. The way I see it, some languages express certain concepts better than others; the German language, for example, is perfect for expressing scientific concepts, because it is ultra precise. The French language is very good at communicating warm emotion. Celtic grammar makes nearly all Celtic languages excellent for expressing the “state” of things, or for description. Well, religions are like that, too. Some of them are better at expressing morality; some are better at expressing love and inclusivity; some are better at promoting social justice–but all religions speak about the same thing: they talk about something or someone that transcends human experience. They simply use different “languages” in which to make these statements. And I, as a curious, intelligent, spiritual being, am interested in knowing as much as I can about religions, the way some people are interested in languages.

I think it’s also important to remember that all religions are human constructs–God didn’t invent religion!–so Joseph Smith shouldn’t be criticized too much for his “invention” of Mormonism. Every single religion had an “inventor,” or a group of inventors.

Some people are fully comfortable resting their faith in one particular religion. It’s not for me to try to change their minds. It’s when a religion tries to present itself as MORE than a metaphor for an unknowable truth that we run into absolutism and fundamentalism, leading to exclusivity, judgmentalism, and even violence. It is highly likely that there has been more violence done in the name of God than for any other reason, ever since humankind started trying to put words to the workings of the spirit.

I don’t believe in “One True Church.” I put more stock in HOPE than in FAITH. I believe in God, but I’m not sure whether God is personal or not. In my own heart, I believe God thinks, lives, and feels. And I believe that every name ever given to God is true; every face for God is true; every description of God is true; all to some limited extent–because no religion can tell us EVERYthing there is to know about God, just as no one single language can express every single human concept (there are languages with no word for “music” for example, or no word for “I” or “me”).

I see nothing wrong with you staying in the LDS church even though you no longer believe their teachings are factual truths. I see nothing wrong with seeing church teachings as metaphorical truths rather than as facts, and I see nothing wrong with acknowledging that.

I also see nothing wrong with you staying in the LDS church even though you have become aware that the church has obfuscated (and still does) about it’s history. Let’s face it, most religions have a past that wouldn’t withstand moral scrutiny (the Inquisition? the Witch Hunts? sexual scandal? Jihad? misogyny? the list can go on and on…). I wish, though, that the church would make an honest, clean effort at acknowledging its past (for example, it would have meant so much more to hear “We were wrong about blacks not being worthy of the priesthood, and we apologize” rather than “God has now revealed that from now on, blacks can be worthy of the priesthood”).

All I’m saying is, I don’t think a curious, open, educated, intellectual person who doesn’t wish to be pinned down by absolutism or dogma has to settle for a life without religious or spiritual community. Just see them as “languages.”

And, by the way, as I said, the church I work in now is Unitarian Universalist, and EVERY belief is welcome there. Our congregation includes Christians, Jews, atheists, pagans, new-agers, social activists, you name it. Every week when we worship together, we know that each one of us is understanding the hymns and sermon a little bit differently than his or her neighbor, and that’s ok. Privately, I think that’s ok in any church of any denomination.

I believe God hears all prayers, in whatever religious language they are cloaked. God speaks the language of LOVE.

Brother.

There are two things that amaze me: Obedience and freedom. They look antagonist but no! they are complementary.

Freedom is essential, it was given by god to man. when I lived in your country my LDS faith was shaped by the idea that nobody had the power to take freedom from me, not even God himself. (I still think the same)

This concept led me to think that I was capable of doing what I wished, including to challenge obedience.

At this point I had my dilemma, Was the church (LDS) the right place for me?.

Well using the freedom i was given by God himself. I tested every aspect of my beliefs, the teachings and speeches of my local leaders, from head to toe, from the prophet to my local leaders.

I came to an undeniable conclusion: Church is the best place to stay, we can use our freedom to confirm everything and be still obeying God.

Indeed, in time, after the storm of our own thoughts, the feelings inspired by God are strong.

If you allow me to say: Your faith will be unmovable, please be still, question what you want, but feel the spirit.

Good look my friend, God loves you.

Jorge

Jay, where ever you get your information from, whoever you listen to, whatever you do, don’t be afraid of the truth. One thing I have learned so far is that the true gospel of Jesus Christ has room for all truth. If it’s true, it belongs with the Gospel. If it’s not, don’t hesitate to delete it from your cache. If you don’t know whether it’s true or not, learn more about it, pray about it, and in the mean time, stick to what you know is true.

If it has to do with people’s character flaws or actions that you don’t agree with, just remember what a wise man once said,

“The gospel is not the people in the Church. The gospel is not even the people who direct it. The gospel is the truth… This Church would still be perfect if the Lord had not let people into it.” – Henry Eyring

May God bless you on your journey for truth and happiness. Peace out!

By the way, that was Henry B. Eyring’s father who said that. He was a very talented scientist, nominated for the Nobel prize a couple times. He too had to find answers to many of religion’s unanswered questions. Some of them he never found the answers to before he died. Just as we won’t.

Now I’m curious, what exactly are you still trying to find answers about, Jay?

Jay

Why should Polyandry bother you if you already accept polygamy?

Isn’t it fair if you accept a man can have more than one wife then a woman should be able have more than one Husband ?

What bothers me is the whole escapade of it .

Warren Jeffs is the Mirror of early LDS Polygamy.

If Joseph Smith should come back today , he would join the FLDS who hold to his doctrines against all adversity.

Darin

Your comment of we won’t find the answers before we die is lame .

I have found the answer and the early LDS organisation was just a typical fanatical cult with obnoxious idiotic leaders who were arrogant and fanatical like the islamic 911 bombers and supporters ( who by the way are supposedly married polygamously to numerous virgins in Heaven )..

Its followers were lied to in the most despicable manner by church leaders and especially over Polygamy.

Joseph Smith turned once decent men into thugs liars and teen bride snatchers …. for his own cause.

The LDS church today has to try and undo all this nonsense whilst making it all look bonafide.

Truth will cut its own way and is not found amongst deception.

Jay

1 Taking biblical precedent to justify things could easily make someone into a tyrant….. see Warren Jeffs , David Koresh , and the many other cult leaders ….. same with some of the Koran Readers and self proclaimed guru’s…
The New testament is a better guideline than the old for what Christians are meant to believe… though thats not faultless ….

2 I’d rather use a conscious discernment/judgement rather than try to justify early LDS leaders behaviour and threats to fellow members including teen girls …… just because there is something in the Old Testament …. You could easily justify killing fellow church members like Moses did when they did an act of Baal worship .As the prophet he ordered the camp of Israel to be slayed and sent the priesthood to do it .

3 Just because its not in the bible doesn’t mean its not acceptable… Where is the precedent for contraceptives in the bible ?

“Ever heard of Onan?”

Yes what a wierd freaking story ! I can imagine Warren Jeffs using this as an example to justify if he wants someone killed.

“Where does it say you can’t use contraceptives?”

Good Point ……Try telling McConkie and Ezra Taft Benson that …

“Those who practice birth control…are running counter to the foreordained plan of the Almighty. They are in rebellion against God and are guilty of gross wickedness.” (Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, first ed., 1958, p. 81.)

“True to form, many of the people who desire to frustrate God’s purposes of giving mortal tabernacles to His spirit children through worldwide birth control are the very same people who support the kinds of government that perpetuate famine. They advocate an evil to cure the results of the wickedness they support.” (Ezra Taft Benson, Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson, p. 539.)

How can the Lord’s anointed be so wrong so often?

Michael ,

How accurate are the church membership figures ?

Your 10 million figure is below the official 13 million figure given in conference …. Yours is most likely more accurate.

What about all those baptism abuses during the in Latin America where missionaries were using dead people names , baptising kids and baptising any confused person who was weak enough to be led that way ….. are these still included in the figure ?

Dr Ted Lyons Mission President at the time

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=VzCcCacfnfU

What about those who resign, are they taken off the membership figures ?

I wrote to the statistics office of Greg Dodge about statistics twice and twice they ignored me .

Its a secretive church IMO and one which is led by PR and Marketing rather than honesty and its no surprise because its roots have a firm foundation in deception and lying for the lord.

What about Jw’s who have 7 million Active members , I think thats more than the LDS .Does that mean God is working through them ?

And also look at the growth in Gambling and Drug addiction ?

Figures and growth are no indication of anything except for the size of potential market to access .

So whenever a GA writes a book , he has an almost guaranteed best seller !

If you look at the LDS church growth then you’ll see that growth has slowed dramatically since the advent of the Internet .Its the same for JW’s . Growth is coming from places without access to information .

Growth in ex LDS members and Inactives on the other hand is growing .

I hope on your mission you are going to be honest with Investigators and not just honest enough for your perception of their own benefit and baptism.

My missionaries were honest with what they thought was true until I enlightened them. They soon realised that the church hadn’t in fact been fuly honest with them and it wasn’t a nice feeling for them.

BR

…… I got the idea from Enos 1 “flocks of herds”

Jared Bauer

you said

“Perhaps now, more than ever, we have a major responsibility as Latter-day Saints to define ourselves, instead of letting others define us. ”

Well if the church were honest with the public and even its own church members then there would be no need for others to define you.

And anyway what use are you all as NON of you speak for the church!

You said

“Far too many people have a poor understanding of the Church because most of the information they hear about us is from news media reports that are often driven by controversies. ”

I would say that too many church members have a poor understanding of the church and that they are the ones likely to learn from the media source like the Internet.
And most of the information the public hear is in your own publications like Journal Of Discourses , Times and Seasons etc.

you said

” Too much attention to controversy has a negative impact on peoples’ perceptions of what the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints really is. ”

Thats because the controversy really is there and I’m not suprised it has a negative impact on the church , it hardly makes it look good.

I would ask myself exactly what is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints really ? as it’s not what it claims to be.

Our goal is to report the news. Nothing more, nothing less. Not all news about the church is good. We do not censor.

Although I am not perfect I am an example of a mormon. When we talk about the church often times we are talking about stories of people that are in the church or in the scriptures, these are also imperfect people and if I based my opinion of the lds faith on that I would have no faith.

All the prophets and even accounts of history in the book of mormon and otherwise are about people who are human. Not perfect. Those stories are there for us to learn from.

If we trust in God and Christ then will gain wisdom and our testimony will grow.

Also about young girls being married to older women back in Joseph Smiths time. Yes some of the young wives had older husbands-as was custom of the era no matter what religion you belonged to. Even my grandmother was married at a young age to an older man…not mormon. As time goes on women seem to marrry later in life such is our changing culture.

I hope you find some comfort in your quest for truth and or a testimony. I have to confess many things seem contradicting at times and that is when I get out my faith and use it as best I can. There are many unanswered questions that only will be revealed in time or in the next life I believe.

Sarah

You said

“When we talk about the church often times we are talking about stories of people that are in the church or in the scriptures, these are also imperfect people and if I based my opinion of the lds faith on that I would have no faith. ”

Imperfect people are one thing .But when you see the way the early LDS Prophets and Apostles conducted Polygamous arranged marriages of young girls to very old mormon leaders and the manner of intimidation/threats employed then I would say in my view that its Sinister, Cruel and offensive to the core of any person with a good conscience.

I see the tradition continued in a like manner by the FLDS church and its leaders.

“Also about young girls being married to older women back in Joseph Smiths time.Yes some of the young wives had older husbands-as was custom of the era no matter what religion you belonged to.”

I don’t believe that 16 year olds were marrying men of 57 ( Orson Pratt )and concieving with them was a custom in the other churches as you suggest.

Or that it was normal for 14 year olds to marry men of 37 ( Joseph Smith) in the other churches .

Ansd neither were the other churches telling them they had to do it to get to heaven or else be damned.

I’d rather not wait until the next life being seen to support these coerced polygamous marriages of young girls to old men.

I’ve made my choice now and declare them not of God but a man made tragedy done under fanatical religous fervour and folly.

PA,

Its easy to find fault in the doctrine too. You don’t have to look that hard.

Bishop Rick-

I suppose if you look at the shallow stuff you might be right, but most of the core doctrines are pretty sound.

Jay-

Ahhh, thanks for the clarification. I understand where you are coming from because I have been (am) there. I have spent a lot of hours pondering what the church should be doing, since I did not believe (as you) they are doing what was right. The focus of the church right now is not what it was when it was restored, right or wrong, that is the truth. There was a lot of changes in the early days after Joseph Smith was gone, especially during Wilford Woodruff, and continuing up to Harold B Lee and beyond.

The focus of the church has turned to being politically correct and encouraging growth, and it is working. The church is growing, but in order to do this it has set aside some of the precious truths that originally set it apart. Think of what they have accomplished in the process, the temples through out the world, the massive amount of work for the dead, the many people receiving their endowments, etc. It is hard for me to see how they could have done that if they had stuck to being an obscure, peculiar people isolated from the world. Look at the success (or lack thereof) of the break off groups.

Now, I am not trying to say that the Lord could not have accomplished this some other way, I am sure He could have, His ways are not my ways. But the Lord leaves the leadership of the church (for the most part) up to the men in charge, whether or not they were put there by inspiration. Men (as a race) tend to lean on their own strength, which is why the church has gone the route it has, the easy route, so to speak. Not necessarily the right route, but it has advanced the world in preparation for the Second Coming.

I appreciate your faith in members when you say

Surely, members would understand if they simply presented the information and then said there is not enough information to really know what happened

but I do not believe it for one minute, it made you question, it made me question, it would make everyone question, that is something the Brethren do not want. When you say

instead they choose to ignore it realizing that a few will be curious enough to find out more information and the vast majority of members will never know.

I think you hit the nail on the head right there. People join the church, learn a little, become complacent, and stop striving, stop progressing. If people were continually working on their knowledge, their faith, and their testimony they would build line upon line, precept upon precept and discover all the dark little secrets in the closets of the church. You are married, is there anything your wife could tell you about her past that would make you love her less? What about on your first date? Could she have shared something with you then to scare you away? Probably so. Same deal with the church, imagine if the missionaries let it all hang out in the discussions, people would get caught up in the supposed shenanigans and miss the whole point; the beauty and simplicity of the gospel. As people grow and learn, the issues that would have crushed their faith in the beginning, would be easier to take/understand and would not damage their faith as much as they could have, if at all.

The Church will have to return to its original (restored) state before the Lord will accept it when He returns. This is the Last Dispensation, when everything will be restored. Not everything has been restored yet, I believe when it is, you will see a mass exodus from the church and only those who have strengthened their testimonies, filled their lamps, will be ready to accept the bride groom. Those who have never bothered to study beyond the textbook primary answers will not have a testimony with roots deep enough to weather the storm. I believe many of the church will fall into this category and it will be to their own condemnation.

I had an amazing spiritual experience once where the Lord told me to focus on myself and work out my own salvation and let Him worry about the church. I have given up on trying to make comments in Sunday School or Priesthood because I usually just derail the lesson and awaken nobody, this does not change my testimony. My testimony is rooted in deep spiritual experiences I have had and reinforced by study and prayer. I do not think I am untouchable, I am afraid the devil has many members of the church in his grasp and I pray I can stay aware and never become one of them.

I do not preach any of this as doctrine, this is what has been revealed to me, because it was what I needed. The Lord reveals to all who seek answers to their questions. May be I am wrong on some points, but this is what I believe and this is what I live by.

And, what is left to be restored?

PallasAthena

If the LDS church is Jesus Christ’s personally restored church, then why does it have to mislead people into the church via a fudged and deceptive version of its own History and Foundational events? Why did Jesus supposedly restore it in such a way that his supposed own church is embarrased to tell the real truth about it?

This church is supposed to be a cut above all ‘Satans’ supposed churches as they were represented in the pre 1990 temple Endowment Ceremony.

You said ” I have given up on trying to make comments in Sunday School or Priesthood because I usually just derail the lesson and awaken nobody, this does not change my testimony.”

I kept my mouth shut most of the time, though on occasion I couldn’t help but ask the more difficult questions in EQ. I was never criticised when I spoke out actually, maybe I should have after all asked about the more controversial things. I just felt uncomfortable by the whole thing and thought it may be a bit disrespectful of me so I decided to quit attending instead.

You sound like you have your own version of religion and just happen to attend an LDS church.

“The Church will have to return to its original (restored) state before the Lord will accept it when He returns.”

What ‘original’ restored state is this you speak of? Polygamy with teens and marrying other mens wives ( Joseph Smith). The blacks priesthood ban( Brigham Young).

“This is the Last Dispensation, when everything will be restored.”

This is no last dispensation in my opinion but just another senseless unfounded claim by a religious group. The church continues its long term business investment plans ( $2 billion shopping mall ). Theye obviousley have revelation that nothing is happening with respect to an imminent return of Jesus Christ, unless of course you believe he will continue with the shopping mall at his return.

“Not everything has been restored yet, I believe when it is, you will see a mass exodus from the church and only those who have strengthened their testimonies, filled their lamps, will be ready to accept the bride groom.”

If you ask me, ‘nothing’ has been restored, let alone ‘not everything’ has been restored yet.:)

People leave the church because they find out they were deceived. Those who leave because of Sin don’t realise they can still be sinners in church.
They mistakenly thought perhaps those leaders actually always practice what they preach.

I miss many of the sincere ward members and feel sad to have given up after two years with them.

Hey Jay, you commented on my blog about the shirtless calendar and I deleted your comment by mistake. I’d love for you to repost it. It was
“I think the Church down plays its polygamous past because the way it was practiced, especially by Joseph Smith was very disturbing. I think Chad is right though, the Church does still practice polygamy in the temples. Men are often sealed to more than one woman. For some reason members seem to think the Church doesn’t practice polygamy anymore. This is most likely because it is not as apparent, but it is still doctrine of the Church.”

Thanks.

Thanks for sharing your story. I can relate to it on so many levels.