Posted by: Jay | April 20, 2007

Polygamy in the early LDS church

Polygamy never bothered me before. Didn’t Abraham and Jacob practice it! It only started to bother me when I learned that Joseph Smith was married to women previously married to another man. Their husbands may not have always known about it and even if they did we don’t really know how they felt about it. It has been hard to reconcile what looks like adultery. Has anyone else struggled with this? Have you found peace with this issue? How?

Advertisements

Responses

  1. The whole aspect of polygamy bothers me , Why is it ok if you read that someone in the bible did it …

    Moses had his Levite priests slay the camp of Israel after they did a litle act of baal worship . Does that mean you would be ok with it in the Mormon Church .Slay a few in sacrament perhaps for not bearing Testimony ?

    The whole aspect of Joseph Smith’s polygamy bothers me , he targetted many young girls and the fear they went through is well recorded .They were threatened that they wouldn’t reach a high exaltatation nor their families if they didn’t obey. Does this sound like something diginfied that Jesus would command knowing his attributes from the bible .

    Then there is The Brigham Young period where he matried and concieived with young girls as young as 15 and he was in his 60’s . Same threats again , would any young teen really freely participate in this evil except for threat to their eternal well being .

    Then there is the whole arrogance of the polygamists as you read the Journal of Discourses .

    The whole thing is an error at best and an evil I never want to see or experience at worst .

    This is what happens when you bow to the threats of self appointed so called Leaders of God .Jesus warned of the consequences of following false prophets .

    They were just and still are imposters .

    The sooner more quit the church , the sooner the reforms will come … In years to come it will be a different church with some different doctrines ..

  2. EJ, I’m not sure I agree with you your last point. As for the biblical slayings you refer to, I suppose I can’t condemn them because God commanded them. That doesn’t mean that I understand it. I think there are many horrible things in the OT. However, I also believe we don’t have the whole story.

    I do think you can use OT examples of polygamy to show it is ordained of God because even the most revered prophets (i.e. Abraham, Jacob) practiced it with no condemnation. You can’t tell me that God would strike someone down for masturbating, but let a prophet, His spokes person, commit adultery with no repercussions. In fact, he continues to bless them and their seed greatly. This, in effect, is a condoning of the practice by God. I’m not trying to preach polygamy is right, I’m just saying that it is very justifiable using the many OT examples.

    The strongest evidence anyone has presented is that OT polygamous marriages caused family problems and this was proof that they don’t work and are not accepted by God. But I know from personal experience that even monogamous marriages have difficulties. Working out these problems is part of being a family. I don’t see such difficulties as proof that God condemns polygamy.

    As for B.Y. and J.S., I suppose the examples you give are interpreted differently according to your point of view. Since your view of the LDS Church is largely critical (judging from our conversations) I am not surprised that you feel the way you do. I don’t blame you for your view and I respect the fact that you feel the way you do. If I was in your shoes I may very well feel the same.

  3. I’m not sure how much of the OT discussions on polygamy can be believed. If we are to believe this, then we must also believe that God sanctioned concubines, which is nothing more than sanctioning adultery.

    Both are “sanctioned” in the OT, but both are still wrong. Interestingly enough, even the BoM condemns polygamy.

  4. For that matter, the OT condones incest.
    The OT is last place I would look for supporting evidence.

  5. Polygamy was the biggest issue for me when I first joined the Church. I never liked it in the Old Testament and didn’t like knowing the LDS Church practised it.

    It is one of the things I simply accepted by faith and knew the Lord would help me understand it if I allowed Him to. Now I understand it and would actually be a part of it if called by God to do so.

    In the Book of Mormon it states that it is an abomination unless decreed by God for His divine purposes. (Jac 2:30)

    His divine purpose would be to ‘raise up seed unto Himself’ or in other words cause believers to increase when there needs to be more in the earth. I can see why Jews needed to procreate more quickly in the early days. I can also see why God would impliment the practice again after the Restoration. To spread the Gospel faster and raise up more Mormons than could come by conversion only. And the fact that many of the men were being killed and the women left husbandless. Just as in the days of old, God wouldn’t want them looking outside their faith to marry. He preferred them marry within their faith which meant some men needed to take more than one wife. Also, it was only men who were *called* to do it. I love what one man said when he was asked if an LDS man was allowed more than one wife… He responded, ‘Yes, a good man. We don’t believe a bad man should have any wife. Only the good deserve the fair.’ I will find the name of the person who said that.

    If you look at Church records you’ll see that it was indeed wise and many many LDS are here and in the Church because of the practice.

    Also, most people married at ages 14 and up in the 1800’s. There’s nothing new about that. And there have been many eras where people married as soon as puberty hit, as young as 12.

    Our society is really different in that our children are maturing at a much slower rate and they are much more coddled in this day in time. By today’s standards 14 and 15 are outrageous ages to allow to marry.

    But back then it wasn’t outrageous at all. Their life spans were not as long either which may have been part of the reason they did marry so young.

    And Abraham took a very young wife after Sarah died. And upon reading the Scriptures it sure doesn’t infer that she had much choice either. Or how about all of King Saul’s wives and concubines being given to David? Did they have a choice? How many Christians want to tar and feather either one of them?

    We just see things more different than any other society before us.

    And I have to say this as well. At least the Mormon men who were called to participate in this practice took the responsibility of marrying the women, unlike the other men of the time who simply had lots of affairs and visited the prostitutes. And no, I’m not saying ALL men did this… but it was VERY common.

    And today, we have a society who marry and divorce and remarry and divorce over and over… Is that monogamy? Is it really special to simply say you’re only *married* to one at a time, but you go from one to the next to the next and on and on? Or never marry at all and just have a series of relationships.

    It’s so easy to judge people who lived before us when we do not have all the facts.

    I think other Christians should deal with Abraham offering his son in a sacrifice… after all, the Bible commands us not to kill… and sacrificing your own son sure sounds like child abuse to me. Yes, I’m being sarcastic to make a point, and that is that other Christian religions sure accept without even blinking many practices they would tar and feather Joseph Smith if he had claimed God told him to do these things..

    And what about Moses holding up that serpent so that if people looked they would be healed? A serpent you say? How SATANIC! More sarcasm to make a point that sometimes God has Prophets do things that sound really out there… but we accept those things because we know those men were true Prophets of God.

    So while you’re picking apart the LDS Church and Joseph Smith in particular, I want to hear your explanations for all the activities of the Prophets of the Old Testament and your explanations for what God instructed His early Prophets to do.

  6. Rick, the Book of Mormon condemns polygamy only when it is done without God’s approval (see Jacob).

    What incest story are you talking about? Are you referring to the fact that Adam and Eve’s children where married to each other? I don’t think they could help that. (I know there is one other story about daughters sleeping with their father, but I can’t quite remember it right now).

    If you’re Christian you are required to look to the OT for supporting evidence. Are we to throw away the prophecies about the Messiah because they are found in the OT. Where else would you look for evidence of His coming? What about the story of Moses and the exodus from Egypt?

    If we are forced to say that’s bad this is good, who is qualified to make those decisions? The only real answer you can give is that there must be more to the story than we have. Something is missing that will help us understand why this was okay.

    I will be the first to admit that the OT has problems, but I don’t believe you can discount stories just because they conflict with your doctrine or ideas about what is “right”. To paraphrase scripture. God’s thoughts are not our thoughts.

  7. Jay,

    The reference of the 2 daughters sleeping with their father so he could have sons to continue his namesake is the very one I was referring to. It was Lot.

    All I am saying is that there are some pretty bad things condoned in the OT that go directly against even the 10 commandments. I can’t see the need for the rest of the story. Lot was never going to have the opportunity to remarry so his only chance was to sleep with his daughters?

    And concubines? That is nice way of saying live-in whore. I seriously doubt that God actually sanctioned either of these 2 things, but yet there it is in the OT.

  8. I have to agree with Jayleen regarding the marrying of 14 year olds in the time of JS. That was not uncommon, even among non-LDS. The methods of coersion, however are suspect.

    One thing I have to disagree with though are the reasons cited for Polygamy.

    First, all during the time of Polygamy, the LDS men outnumbered the women so the lack of men argument is not valid. For this reason, polygamy would not have increased membership in any way. 10 men procreating with 10 women produces the exact same result as 1 man procreating with 10 women. Polygamy did nothing to increase the numbers of the church and only served to deny some men of eligible women and made difficult not to foster inbreeding. I mean when an entire town are your first cousins or half-siblings, what choices do you have?

    In some cases, Polyandry encroached on men who were already married. How is that one explained?

    The reason for Polygamy given by all the prophets of the time is that it was essential for men and women to gain the highest level of the Celestial Kingdom.

    Maybe I’m missing something here, but I cannot find a single thing about polygamy that justifies it.

  9. When I read Jacob, it clearly states that Polygamy and concubines are whoredoms that are an abomination in the site of the lord. Jacob 23 – 32.

    Verse 30 makes a vague mention of raising up seed, but this argument does not hold up in the case of the early church.

    Polygamy, as practiced by the early church was not sanctioned, and according to the BofM is a whoredom and abomination in the side of the Lord.

  10. Further, the reasons used by the early GAs are not supported by scripture and are nothing less of despicable…IMO.

  11. Rick,
    Jacob 2:30 says, “For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things.” That “vague” reference does imply that the Lord provides an exception according to LDS theology. There is no getting around that.

    Rising up seed doesn’t necessarily mean an increase in seed. It can also mean that God chooses who will create the families his spirit children will be raised in. Thus the necessity for only righteous (depending on your point of view) men fathering children in a polygamous marriage.

    I don’t have an explanation for the polyandry that occurred with Joseph Smith other than to state what apologists do, which is that they were marriages for after this life only. If there were proof that Joseph Smith fathered children of married women, I would have a serious problem with this explanation. However, until that proof is made available, I am forced to admit that if you are a believer in LDS theology this explanation is acceptable.

    You are right that there are many “excuses” concocted by members to explain polygamy. These continue to be spread as quasi doctrine across the LDS Church. I personal belief is that LDS members struggle with this doctrine until they are able to justify it in their own mind. Sometimes this leads to erroneous conclusions as to why it was practiced.

  12. Jay,

    Do you really believe that God would want select souls to be raised in a mostly fatherless environment via a method he clearly despises?

    Seems like quite the stretch to fit in that little loophole.

  13. Well, I can’t say I understand how it could work. Shockingly, I do accept polygamy as a doctrine from God. In my view it is doctrinally sound. I see no reason why people are opposed to it (theologically speaking).

    I do have a problem understanding how Joseph’s and other leaders’ polyandry is okay. I find no support for this anywhere in scripture. It is disturbing to me. I hope that as I study the issue I will find the answer that will give me the peace I am looking for.

  14. I don’t know how you can accept polygamy theologically. It is demeaning to woman, lowering their status to that of cattle with the man at the head.
    Have you wondered why the LDS church looks down on praying to your Heavenly Mother? Because according to LDS doctrine, it is likely that we all have a different one.

    Here is what the righteous LDS man has to look forward to:

    Living in the top of the Celestial Kingdom
    Sitting at the banquet table with other Gods/Gods2B
    Going home to one of his endless wives (let’s say 365 to put an earthly shine to it) – variaty is the spice of life
    Procreating to build up his kingdoms that he can create and rule over for ever and ever

    Here is what the righteous LDS woman has to look forward to:

    Being one of 365 wives of Heber
    Spending eternity barefoot and pregnant
    Spending one day a year with Heber in order to get pregnant again
    for ever and ever

    How does this practice, which God apparently can’t stand, but practices in Heaven, sound remotely plausible?

    Maybe I’m missing something.
    Please give me your take. (that is a sincere request)

  15. You are making a lot of assumptions in your above statements. I can’t go out on a limb and say how it would work. I just don’t know.

    What I do know is if it was such an evil practice Abraham and Jacob would not have done it. They remain in God’s good graces and are even praised by Jesus himself. I just find it hard to believe that they were commiting adultery the whole time God continued to bless them greatly. Nothing in the Bible directly condemns polygamy. Unless you can show me where it says thou shalt not practice polygamy, I suppose I’ll have to go with what is in the OT.

  16. Look back at Jacob and Leah and Rachel. Rachel *traded* her night with Jacob for some of Leah’s son’s mandrakes. The women had a lot more to say about all this than you are giving them credit for. Also look at Sarah and Abraham and Hagar. Sarah told Abraham to send Hagar away and he did. LDS teaching is that God told him Sarah was right in this case to ask that. Hagar wasn’t a bad person, as the Lord ministered unto her in the desert. And as promised, her seed became a great nation.

    Rick, it is only an abomination when men do it without God’s approval. Or do it for purely carnal reasons.

    Here is a senario… You are married and love your wife. You have children. Your wife dies. You later remarry and have children with that wife. Would you prefer to have to choose which wife to be with in the eternities? Could your heart truly not love both of them?

    And you are sounding like a modern man-hating feminist in your description of polygamy in heaven. Sheeesh. I’m female and I would rather share a righteous man than have my choice of 5000 unrighteous ones!!

    Being single as I am and a fairly recent convert I have seen the men available to me and no thank you. I’d rather the Lord give me to a righteous man even if I had to share. Would I prefer to have a righteous one all to myself? Sure… but the other fact is we don’t know for sure how all this will be handled on the other side. I have heard many a Bishop and Priesthood holder say there will be a lot to sort out.

    I think what will surprise some is who the righteous men really turn out to be. Any man who sees polygamy as just a way to satisfy his carnal desires in eternity probably *won’t* be one of the righteous. You are putting earthly thinking and limits on God. We don’t *know* what either sex or childbearing will be like there so it’s best not to base it on a fallen mortal perspective. If this theoretical *Heber* person were granted 365 wives, I think all of them would be quite happy as *Heber* would be an astoundingly righteous and wonderful man with plenty enough love to go around.

    There is nothing unrighteous in this practice unless practiced outside the bounds set by the Lord.

    And I think both males and females will be very happy in their roles throughout eternity. And we will see things differently with an eternal perspective rather than the limited mortal one we see now.

    Also Jay – I’m not sure about the polyandry thing you’re talking about. Can you give me some references? My guess would be these women were not sealed to their earthly husbands and therefore whatever marriage they had here wasn’t for eternity and maybe *they* wished to be sealed to a Prophet. It also wouldn’t be adultery if there were no sex involved. I don’t know of anyone who claims to be an out of wedlock child of Joseph Smith or Brigham Young and even if they did, I’d have to see DNA to prove it. Do we have any out of wedlock child claims toward any Prophet of the Church? And I mean first hand accounts with credible proof. Not the Antis made up stories that have no proof and no substance.

  17. Jayleen,

    Don’t take this wrong, just an observation of mine.
    A testimony is good enough for you for things supporting the church, but things that don’t support, you need concrete (DNA) evidence.

    Just an observation.

  18. Regarding Jayleen’s scenario:

    There are those that would say that you made your choice of wife on this earth. Don’t get remarried after her death, then there is not choice to be made.

    Then there is the camp that supports Jayleen’s scenario, reasoning that it is not just for the man to have to dwell on earth the rest of his days alone.

    Then there is the scenario where the a man and wife are married and have children and the man dies and the wife remarries and has children with the 2nd husband. Should she have to make a choice between the 2 husbands?

    Answer: She is not given a choice. She is stuck with the first husband unless she gets a temple divorce and gets sealed to the first husband.

    Gee, that’s fair.

  19. meant to say, “…sealed to the second husband.”

  20. Because the *Holy Ghost* has told me this is the Restored Church. That is how I got my testimony. I have no testimony of anything the Antis say. If the Holy Ghost had given me a witness of the Antis then it would be the other way around. See? I have also read many lies from Antis regarding the Church, ones that I have found absolute proof they were lying. So yes, it is upon them to prove things they accuse.

    And as I have already told you, my testimony from the Holy Ghost was not just a warm fuzzy… it was the most powerful thing I even experienced. There’s no turning backward for me. I’m in it to the end. I can no more deny the Church or Joseph Smith as a Prophet than I can Jesus is the Christ. It’s all connected. I *KNOW* this… I don’t just *suppose* this.

  21. And just a PS as to the polygamy issue… there were rules regarding it in the Old Testament under the Law of Moses.

    Ex 21:10 says: If he take him another wife; her food, her raiment, and her duty of marriage, shall he not diminish.

  22. Well, I think the 5 books of Moses are suspect at best. They were not written by Moses as many would have you believe. They were written thousands of years after the events of Genesis, and hundreds of years after the death of Moses. Some of the books were written by more than one person as they obviously have multiple voices. Plus they are filled with things that we know are just not true. That makes everything else in those books come under question.

    Plus the BofM clearly condemns the OT prophets for engaging in in polygamy and states that Polygamy is an abomination (except for raising up seed – which is rediculous to me). You don’t need to engage in an abomination to raise up seed. Mass rape would do the same thing with much greater results.

    Of course I don’t advocate rape, but an abomination is an abomination. Engaging in either makes no sense.

    If our modern day prophets are so imperfect, why can’t polygamy be a product of that imperfection?

    Regarding your testimony – as I have already said, Habib KNOWS that the Koran is true and that Islam is true. He doesn’t just suppose.

    It should be clear here why this type of “proof” is not acceptable.

    I know Jaylene’s thoughts on this. What do the rest of you think? Am I alone in this reasoning?

  23. 1 Cor 2:13-14 “Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

    But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God; for they are foolishness to him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.”

  24. Jayleen you quoted as some authority about polygamy

    Ex 21:10 says: If he take him another wife; her food, her raiment, and her duty of marriage, shall he not diminish.

    What about Exodus 21:17 And he that Curseth his father or his mother shall be put to death .

    Have you ever cursed your father or mother ?

    and the 1 Cor quote ? read on next verse
    15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things , yet he himself is judged of no man .

    You see we are the spiritual ones really ,judging the polygamy .

  25. Jayleen … your Testimony is just a denial of reality … wake upto the fact that Joseph Smith was Targetting and threatening Young teens into marrying him , one of 14 years old too.

    He also married 11 married women …. Is that part of youtr testimony too
    …… I KNOW , IKNOW,I KNOW , IKNOW,I KNOW , IKNOW,I KNOW , IKNOW,I KNOW , IKNOW
    … ..NOTHING ! lol

  26. EJ,
    I think we already established that the age of Joseph Smith’s wives is not really relevant. Did he coerse them into marriage with him? I don’t think you really know the answer to that (unless you have access to some document where Joseph Smith confessed).

    Jayleen understands the issue I think as well as any of us. She chooses to be at peace with the way things are. I don’t think belittling her testimony serves any purpose. It’s okay to disagree, but please just be respectful of others beliefs.

  27. EJ- If you were following the thread you would realize I quoted the old testament about plural marriage to show that plural marriage could not have been an abomination to God or He wouldn’t have made laws allowing for it. That was the point.

    Please at least try to keep up. lol

    Jay – I’m building up treasure in heaven… 😉

  28. You’d only be judging the Polygamy rightly if you were judging it on God’s side. You’re clearly not. He allowed it. I’ll look it up tomorrow, but he GAVE David all of Sauls wives and concubines through Nathan the Prophet. AND said he would have given him more if he wanted!!

    The only thing David sinned in was taking Bathsheba and then KILLING her husband. All the rest were GIVEN HIM BY GOD…

    But thanks for playing… 😉

  29. Jayleen,
    Do you have the scriptural reference for that? I would like to read it. That seems like that kind of scripture would make it obvious that God sanctions polygamy. If it were that clear I think everyone would agree. There must be some other way people are interpreting the scripture you are referencing.

  30. 2 Samuel 12:7-9

    It is where Nathan the Prophet tells David the parable of the little ewe lamb and this is the part where Nathan rebukes David for sinning with Bathsheba and killing Uriah, her husband.

    “And Nathan said to David, Thou art the man. Thus saith the Lord God of Israel, I anointed thee king over Israel, and I delivered thee out of the hand of Saul; And I gave thee thy master’s house, and thy master’s wives into thy bosom, and gave thee the house of Israel and of Judah; and if that had been too little, I would moreover have given unto thee such and such things.

    Read the whole section. The Lord continues to speak to David through Nathan the Prophet and tells him what his future will be as a result of his sin and says he will “take thy wives before thine eyes, and give them unto thy neighbour, and he will lie with thy wives in the sight of the sun.”

    Then read D&C 132 where the Lord says the only thing David sinned in was with Bathsheba and killing her husband. The rest was not only OKAY with the Lord, but HE GAVE THE WIVES TO HIM… plural. Many plural. lol

    His way are higher than our ways. Just because our mortal minds can’t ‘get it’ sometimes, doesn’t change God.

    And I’ll say this too: I read about that guys book about the polyandry and he was talking about how *lonely* the women were and blah blah blah… well, I got a newsflash for him about all the currently single women in this Church. There are a LOT of us who would gladly share a righteous husband if we could. All the things he claimed those women ‘went through’ wah wah wah… we single women go through and then some. I could EASILY see myself living back in Joseph Smith’s day and being married to some inactive or non-Church member man and wanting to know my eternity was secure with a righteous man like Joseph Smith.

    Check our the review of that book at the BYU FARMS site. That guy simply has his own notions just like many who are posting here and simply doesn’t ‘get it’. So he wrote a book with tons of supposition and claims that have no basis in fact. He supposes the women were miserable simply because he can’t imagine it any other way. But as a women, I CAN imagine it another way so his suppositions go right down the toilet. He can’t speak for all women any more than I can.

  31. 2 Samuel 12:7-9

    It is “scripture” like this that throws cedibility of polygamy out the window.

    No one in thier right mind would believe that God sanctions adultery and prostitution. (Hint: concubines).

    If this “scripture” sanctions whoredoms and polygamy in the same breath, what does that say about not only polygamy, but this scripture.

    Jayleen,

    The BofM is VERY CLEAR about what God thought of polygamy, concubines, and whoredoms. He thought they were an abomination.

    You keep forgetting this part.
    It is called selective reasoning.

  32. Let me tell you guys this. Just because something is written in the bible or some other text that you accept as scripture DOES NOT MAKE IT RIGHT, and DOES NOT MEAN IT IS SANCTIONED BY GOD.

    If this were true, then God can’t make up his mind AND IS NOT GOD.

    Example (ad nauseum):
    Though shalt not commit adultery

    It’s okay to have a whore live you for sexual purposes (CONCUBINE).

    Use some common sense folks.
    Don’t rely on 2000 year old texts where you have no idea if it is translated correctly since the original transcrpts are long gone. This goes for modern texts where the original transcript is gone as well.

  33. Jayleen ,

    You don’t need to be married to a ‘righteous’ man like Joseph Smith .. he wasn’t righteous for a start and I’ve heard about Mormon Temple recommend men whocheat on their wives . What kind of righteousness is that .

    Joseph Smith simply used the polygamy trick after he got caught with Fanny Alger and the subsequesnt rift with Oliver Cowdery afterwards …

    First in secret from the church members and to only his little gentlemans club of followers … and then later tried to keep it secret from outside the church by lying in public so arrogantly … and the church continued the lie until 1852 I think , when Brigham Young publicised it and started his reign of terror with young vulnerable girls …

    This whole notion of being married to a priesthood holder for salvation is false and there is no one else needed , only the Gift Of Jesus Christ’s atonement .

    Joseph Smith put himself as mediator to these girls and its a disgrace ….

    Mormon celestial mariage teachings are a result of Joseph Smiths adultery and subsequent fiasco of nonsensicalrevelation getting out of hand amongst a bunch of bigotted idiots who even thought they were Prophets and Apostles …

    If it wasn’t so serious and damaging it would be laughable .

  34. EJ – I know of the LDS men with ‘fake’ Temple Receommends, which is why I want a truly righteous man. I have the discernment to tell the ones who are *fakes* from the ones who are true. I know the righteous exist. And I didn’t say I wanted one ‘to get me into’ the Celestial Kingdom. I already have that promise. I want to be with a righteous man because I know what that means and because I love righteousness.

    You are entitled to your opinion. It’s sad that it is what it is. There is so much sick stuff in the world, what is telling is that people like you chase Mormons around the internet instead of confronting the truly sick.

    Everything you say could be said of all God’s prophets from Adam to Joseph of Egypt and on down from there. Clearly you do not see things like God does. And you’re talking to a woman who didn’t want to join the Church for the reasons you cited. But my spirit wouldn’t let it go at that. I had to pray about it. No one could have been more sincere in their prayer or more willing to follow truth whether I like it or not. And Heavenly Father doesn’t give someone a scorpion in answer to their sincere, heartfelt, humble prayers. And there is more that I will not speak of.

    I got my answer… I KNOW that answer was from God. And since then I have come to understand polygamy.

    Your religion has nothing to offer me. You are wasting your time and breath.

    I know Jesus Christ is my Savior, crucified for me, and He was raised up on the third day. I know my Heavenly Father who Jesus sits on the right hand of. I have the companionship of the Holy Ghost. And the LDS Church is Christ’s Church restored through the Prophet Joseph Smith. Like the Apostle Paul said, I will be like Him. I beleive that. These things I know. And no man will ever convince me otherwise.

    Have a nice day.

  35. Jayleen

    I don’t know of Adam tricking girls into polygamy or having sexual relations with teens when in his old age like Brigham Young did .

    Adam only had one wife didn’t he ?

    If you were around in Joseph Smith’s time maybe he would called you into his plural mariage if you were young enough and fit eneough for him . He certainly hardly bothered with anyone his own age.. and of course you had to keep it quiet .. a secret revelation from God himself .

    AND IF YOU REFUSED ? Well he’d find a way to threaten you and your eternal salvation of course .

    And what exactly has Joseph Smith restored when all he has done is franchise off Salvation in return for 10% of your income for life .. all on the back of poor Jesus Christ who died for us , but we need Joseph Smith now also ……

    Thats what he told the women he fancied , Have sex with me or you won’t go to Celestial heaven …..a disgrace …

    and you have a testimony of this ? Would you have given your 14 year old daughter to the prophet also ?

    Are there no proverbs in the bible about fools ?

    My religion would empower you to have faith in yourself and God and not follow these Imposters in America , believing their made up stuff .Pull yourself together .

  36. You are a sicko EJ.

    Psychology 101 – You are projecting. And seem a bit jealous to boot.

    Clearly your religion has nothing or you would be telling us all about the wonder and joy of it, instead of chasing Mormons around with your smarmy attitude. It’s people like you who reinforce my testimony in the LDS Church. No one has tried to control me in any way yet.

    How about if you talk to someone else other than me. Now that’s a good idea.

  37. Jayleen,

    Are you Molly the Mormon?

    http://www.mollythemormon.blogspot.com

  38. I’m not going to click any link you post BR.

    I asked you a sincere question and clearly you aren’t willing to answer it. That tells me all I need to know about you.

  39. Jay – we had three young people give talks in Sacrament today about Seminary. They were clearly well-versed in the issues of plural marriage.

    Also, I asked several if they knew about Joseph Smith and polyandry and they all did.

    I’ve also done quite a bit of research concerning the polyandry and there is absolutely NO evidence whatsoever that Joseph Smith had sexual relations with any of those women. And just something to think about… If it was all about sex, where are all his children by these women? Zippo… nada… zilch… none…

    It was all about eternity and based in priciples of righteousness and providing those women with secure eternities. Don’t let the vulgar men who are posting here make you think that the Prophets were as vulgar as they are. (Their conclusions speak far more of them than they do of the Church or the Prophets) I can only say that as a woman I really can see the divine in that priciple. I can also see why people find it repugnant… but I believe we see it as that when we are looking through mortal eyes.

    The young kids that spoke today have heard it all through learning Church History (which is also how I heard of most of it, except the polyandry part, but I’m just a convert of 3 1/2 years) which doesn’t hide any of these things. Maybe though they are teaching it more these days so the missionaries don’t get caught so off guard.

    The polyandry IS noted on the BYU site and discussed at length. Also on many other LDS sites. I haven’t read the complete history of the Church, but am working on it.

    I’m guessing that it is not emphasized because there is nothing to emphasize. I.E. the Antis can’t prove anything. They just base what they say on supposition and their own filthy minds assuming there could be no other reasons for what was done.

    As with Abraham (who some here think we should not reference, but Jesus and Paul both did many times) and the rest of the Prophets, it’s just not what is focused on. Jesus didn’t focus on it. Instead He and Paul continually held Abraham up as a righteous man of God. Trust Him and Paul.

    And from all the weird stuff the Antis come up with, I would never expect you guys (young missionaries) to be well versed in all of it.

    Satan will stop at nothing to discredit the Church and tie us all up in nonsense. I’ve spent many hours researching all these things, both prior to becoming a member and since. And I understand your need to understand. I just hope your questioning is not distracting you too much from what is good and pure and lovely. These are the last days and time is short. Don’t let Satan de-rail you in the last hours. It really does seem like such a waste of precious time. But with the attacks from the Antis being so vicious, I guess it can’t be helped.

    I pray that the Holy Spirit will help you through this time of questioning.

  40. Here is a link from FAIR about an early LDS woman who was sealed in the temple to multiple men.

    http://www.fairlds.org/FAIR_Conferences/2006_Zina_and_Her_Men.html

    Joy, was the book you referred to “In Sacred Loneliness”? I haven’t read it, but from my understanding it’s a pretty well respected book. It sounds like the author did his homework. But, I’m not a big fan of people endorsing or criticizing a book they’ve never read, so I don’t know if it’s any good.

    Jay, at the top of the comments you mentioned Oden. I think it’s a pretty big textual mistake to say that God struck him down for masturbation. He was involved in sexual relations with his wife, he “spilled his seed” to dishonor her and keep her from having children. He was not in the act of pleasuring himself. The Bible *may* discourage masturbation, but it’s really not the point of that passage. It’s a distortion to make it so.

    Curious, how do LDS contend with Paul saying that Elders should be the husband of only one wife in Timothy (or is it Titus?). That makes it clear that Elders, at the very least, should not be polygamous. I don’t know of too many LDS men who aren’t elders.

    EJ — I think you tone and respect for Joy could be greatly improved. If you’re just looking to pick a fight, have at it, but you’re not really winning any friends or influencing anybody.

  41. Dando – FARMS has an excellent commentary on that book and yes that is the one I’m referring to. I guess the one thing that really stuck out what how ‘put upon’ and ‘lonely’ these women *must* have felt. And that was the big issue… He assumes way too much.

    I could write a book on what it is to be a single woman in this world and as I said, my views toward polygamy have completely changed. And I am realizing that it is all in how pure ones mind is. If your mind is filthy (which prior to joining this Church that was all I knew of men), therefore I assumed a filthy reality. But since joining this Church I have had the immense pleasure of getting to know and talking with many men whose minds are pure and undefiled and their thinking simply does not go to where the Antis go with this issue.

    And the thing about the Elders was what I kept harping on to the Sisters I was talking to. I think it is really important to realize that different things are allowed and/or sanctified during different dispensations. Clearly polygamy was indeed accepted and sanctified in the Old Testament. In the New Testament Jesus speaks of Abraham as a righteous man. So does Paul. NEITHER of them took him to task for polygamy.

    Also, personally I consider if a man has sexual relations with his wife, and *spills his seed* on the ground, and had the attitude Oden did, he is in a very real sense masturbating. That’s just teachings from the Book of Joy though. lol

  42. Jayleen

    you say Joseph didn’t have sex with any of his polygamous wives ?

    the whole purpose was to procreate and raise seed

    D&C 132 63 ………… for they are given unto him to amultiply and replenish the earth, according to my commandment, and to fulfil the promise which was given by my Father before the foundation of the world, and for their exaltation in the eternal worlds, that they may bear the souls of men;………..

    also it says they must be virgins

    D&C 132 61 And again, as pertaining to the law of the priesthood—if any man espouse a virgin, and desire to espouse aanother, and the first give her consent, and if he espouse the second, and they are virgins, and have vowed to no other man, then is he justified;

    Joseph Smith ….maried 11 married women !

    The whole thing is obviousley a sick Hoax perpetrated by a cult leader and you are believing this ? You believe the men in church in sacrament talking of Polygamy are righteous ?

    Loads of Mormon temple worthy have been arested for child sex attempts , child sex abuse , and you call us filthy ?

    you have been duped big time .

  43. Jayleen

    We are not in any last days and these are not the final hours ..

    You are just misleading everyone just like the Jw’s have been doing speaking this way ..

    Basically you are just repeating what you have heard in church . Wher is your individualism , you’re ability to think for yourself .

    I’ve been atending church for two years and I don’t see real hapiness there . I see alot of mental ilness , stress and denial .. I don’t klnow if the church creates it ior they were of that disostition when they joined ..

    Yes a few seem content , but they are the ones who are a bit more enterpreneurial and make good money .

    not many have full families in church , so for them , their familyisnot eternal acording to LDS theology , they are split between celestial and terrestrial … and most members admit they are not obeying fully anyway .. so they are unlikely to be in celestial themselves ..

    I’ve helped a few come back to Jesus Christ basics and free their minds if this religion …

    If you’re not careful you’l end up single like many in our ward and past child bearing age … They are all miserable too , they can’t understand why their Patriarchal blessing didn’t come true ?

    The answer is quite easy really .

    Dando

    My tone is of concern for anyone caught up in this religion …. and if it really does strengthen her testimony then she has nothing to grumble about !but the real truth is it doesn’t .

  44. Jayleen,

    Since you refuse to click on the link, that tells me that you are not Molly the Mormon…just wondering as you seem to have the same voice.

    Regarding your sincere question, I must have missed that. This blog moves 100 mph and it is hard to keep up with all the comments.

    Please state your question again and I will be happy to answer it.

  45. Jayleen,
    I am aware that Joseph Smith had no children (that we know of) from his polyandrous marriages. There are a few claims that have been made and a statement from one of his wives that she knew of children of his that went by different names (see In sacred loneliness by Todd Compton). If these children came from the polyandrous marriages, I would have a huge problem with that. To date I have not found credible evidence that he did have children in such marriages, so I’m willing to give Joseph Smith the benefit of the doubt. There has been DNA evidence that has disproved some claims people had to being Joseph’s children. There are people that are actively trying to find these things out. Sooner or later there will be an answer. If there is no evidence that his polyandrous marriages produced children, then I’m prepared to accept fully the explanation that these were marriages for after this life only.

    I am surprised and happy to hear that seminary students in your ward are being taught about Joseph’s polygamy. Maybe this is a change in LDS Church policy. It needs to be talked about openly and understood.

    However, I recently talked to my brother-in-law who is preparing to go on a mission. He didn’t know that Joseph had many wives. He thought Emma was the only one. He didn’t know about Joseph’s polyandry. In other words, I think the Church still has a long way to go.

    Thank you for your concern and prayer (I need them), but don’t worry too much. I may not comment on every post that has been put on this blog, but that doesn’t mean that I agree always with what is said. I find that most time I agree with some of it and disagree with most of it. It is rare when I find a post that I completely agree with. I am not willing to just accept someone’s word on these issues. Many times all someone does is point me in a direction or bring something to my attention. I research and study it on my own and make up my mind as I contemplate the sources of the controversy.

    I have learned long ago that people say a lot of things to suite there own purpose both in and out of the LDS Church. The only real person you can trust to give you the truth is yourself and God. Unfortunately, my mind has problems understanding the “why” sometimes. I’m just trying to work out the why to satisfy my mind while giving the Church the benefit of the doubt. I don’t know how long this is going to take. Maybe it will be years before I understand, maybe a few more months. I really don’t know. I have already found peace with many issues brought to my attention by LDS detractors. I have found many of the accusations have been sensationalized, taken out of context, or simply made up (IMO). So I am careful about what I take to heart anymore from someone hostile to the LDS Church. In the same why I am careful not to take the “Sunday school” answers repeated so often in our meetings to heart. I have found they contain only part of the truth and lack the depth of conversation I am really longing for. I also pray that God will help me find the truth. I believe he can.

    Dando,
    That’s a good question. I’ll have to read up on it and get back to you.

    EJ,
    The discussion here is meant to be informative not accusatory or demeaning. I appreciate that you have a different opinion that’s why I invited you to comment here in the first place, but please state your opinion without the sharp words against others. That’s not the kind of conversation I am interested in from anyone.

    Your comment about “Loads of Mormon temple worthy” being arrested for sex crimes is simply false and insulting (I have a temple recommend). I am unaware of any statistics that support such a statement. In the future, please base comments like this on actual evidence before you submit them as a post.

    By submitting things like this in your posts you only hurt your credibility with readers (i.e. if your willing to say that what else have you said that is not true). I realize that you as well as others are passionate about this. But it’s only through a thoughtful and respectful conversation that everyone can come to conclusions of their own.

  46. Regarding EJ’s comment on “Loads of Mormon Temple worthy [men]…”

    It is well documented that an LDS Seventy (can’t remember his name, but he was the first “Lamanite GA”) was accused of child sex abuse in the 90s. There have also been various Sunday School teachers, Primary teachers, and scout leaders accused of the same.

    However, of the ones that I know about (due to being in the news) it appears to be no more than a handful. This would seem to mirror national statistics and not show a trend towards LDS men being more disposed to this behavior. And, outside the GA, we have no idea if these men had Temple Recommends and even if they did (as in the case of the GA), they would not be considered temple worthy.

    These incidents are the reason that male Primary teachers must have a second teacher in the class with them at all times, or they must teach with the door open. I know this because my wife used to be Primary President, and I am a Primary teacher.

  47. Jay ,

    I heed your request for me to be more sesitive caring .. my apologies to you and Jayleen ..

    Jay you seem tohappy toacept joseph didn’t have sex with his polygamous wives

    but what about the purpose of the revelation

    D&C 132 63 ………… for they are given unto him to amultiply and replenish the earth, according to my commandment, and to fulfil the promise which was given by my Father before the foundation of the world, and for their exaltation in the eternal worlds, that they may bear the souls of men;………..

    also it says they must be virgins

    D&C 132 61 And again, as pertaining to the law of the priesthood—if any man espouse a virgin, and desire to espouse aanother, and the first give her consent, and if he espouse the second, and they are virgins, and have vowed to no other man, then is he justified;

    Joseph Smith ….married 11 already married women …

    It doesn’t make sense and anyway how are we going to find evidence as to thether he had sex with them or not .. its not as if a third party would be there watching !

    There was a rift with Oliver Cowdery over Fanny Alger and he never came back on the scene .. Sidney Rigdon was horrified that Joseph proposed his daughter Nancy .. Why would they get so heated over it if it was just innocent dynastic weddings ? and Emma too , why would she hate it so much as well to the point of hiding it from her children ?

  48. sorry about the spelling , I was rushing !

  49. EJ,
    These are legitimate questions. I don’t have all the answers right now. I’ll have to do some studying. Thanks for pointing these things out. Perhaps someone else could comment.

  50. I have no more time at present, but one thing jumps out… Oliver Cowdery returned to the Church.

  51. Jayleen,

    When you have time, please ask your sincere question again. I really would like the opportunity to answer it.

  52. Hi Jayleen

    Hey your photos are awsome and the night time temple one is ace ! lol

    I really wish I believed in Mormonism in a way . trouble is there are too many things troubling me and now I’ve become a little anti unfortunately .But my desire is for real truth , even though you disagree that we will find it historically or factually .. I don’t need proof of Jesus Christs miracles etc and the promise of life after death …thats faith ,

    but it does help that the lands he roamed upon exist in their almost identically named state …. and The Jewish nation exists too .. and many of the biblical nations are historically and archeologically correct also ..

    Unlike the Book Of Mormon which seems to be a plagued with every problem possible historically and archeologically ….

    What if the narratives of Jesus took place in the land of eldijozefou and he was arrested by jozians etc . who would believe that nonsense !

    The Book Of Mormon is strange , capitalising on the Historically , Archeologically and Spiritually inspired bible and at the same time refuting it for supposedly lacking things !

    Thanks for the mention of Oliver Cowdery , I’m not 100% Accurate when I post sometimes , it must be the anti mormon adrenalin ! lol

  53. for anyone who can answer,

    if polygamy is okay if it’s ordered by God then why is it so important to say that there is no PROOF that Joseph had sex with his wives? That defense seems to be hedging both sides of the issue. As if to say: “God said it’s okay, but even if He didn’t Joseph didn’t really do it.”

  54. Dando,,From reading these comments, I read that the only ones Joseph didn’t have sex with were the polyandy ones,, polyandrous ones sp??,, not polygamous ones,,

  55. I don’t have a problem if Joseph had sex with the ones that weren’t married, if God sanctioned it. The married ones are where it breaks down for me. That is where apologists say that he didn’t have sex. These polyandrous marriages were for after this life only (i.e. no sexual relations with Joseph Smith in this life). So far there is absolutely no proof that he did have sex with his married wives. Except for a very few (1 or 2) comments made by people to the contrary. I know that at least one of them was proven false using DNA. So I don’t know how credible the rest of them are but I am open to any new findings.

  56. Well I could just as easily say that there is no proof that Joseph ever had sex with Emma. At best we could only infer that she was impregnated by the same man on multiple occasions. (unless we’re willing to dig Smith’s body up and get DNA samples). If I were willing to tarnish a number of people’s reputation I could make an argument that Joseph was sterile throughout his entire life. (I don’t believe he was)

    The way Smith’s followers practiced polygamy do we have any doubt that consummating the relationship was part of sealing the marriage? Do we equally infer that Brigham Young didn’t consummate his multiple polyandrous marriages? For those who know their history you don’t find many willing to defend the reputation of prophet Young the same way people defend prophet Smith.

    My point in saying any of this is that “you can’t PROVE it” seems to be a convenient place to hide, when Smith’s reaction against the Navou Expositor and the way polygamy was practiced by Smith’s followers seem to indicate that something more was happening. I’ll know doubt be called a pervert by some, but I don’t think sex inside the bounds of marriage is perverted. So when Joseph married someone I think it’s reasonable to believe that he actually married them. If it was just a simple spiritual sealing his Second Councilor probably wouldn’t have left and tried to expose him.

    Everyone is free to believe what ever they want about it. But if it’s okay to take 22 unmarried women as brides because God told him to, I don’t know why it isn’t okay for him to take married women as well.

  57. I think this is an area where LDS are willing to give more benefit to Joseph Smith than they would other people. (for good reason, A LOT hangs on Joseph).

    A quick example, I could show you a number of true things about L. Ron Hubbard. The average LDS would have no probably accepting them and believing that they are true (he died with pyschotropic medication in his system for instance). The justifications and conspiracies that Scientologist come up with to gloss over these things is simply incredible. The general LDS population would not buy the excuses for one moment, but when it comes to Joseph Smith, there are on occasion, some who make the Scientologist seem reasonable.

    http://www.xenu.net/archive/hubbardcoroner/

  58. Dando, I think so many people have turned polygamy (especially polygamy of Joseph Smith) into nothing more than a sexual gratification scheme, calling Joseph all sorts of perverted names.

    For me, calling JS a sexual deviant, a child molester, and a pervert cuts to the very heart of my belief in his divine calling and makes of him nothing more than a piece of trash. With so many personal witnesses to the contrary, I would have to disagree with these judgemental, abusive, offending, and unproven descriptions of his character.

    Certainly if he WAS a prophet, and WAS commanded to take on the doctrine and practice of plural marriage, then it is only reasonable to assume that any intimacy to have been had in these relationships is right before God- as Jay mentioned.

    I don’t have any problem with these intimate relationships either. It’s none of my business. But when people make it all out to be about sex, then other reasonable explanations are given in support of this practice in conjunction with the procreative reasons. But the critics often minimize these in order to focus on the “evilness” of it. Polygamy is certainly a tough one to handle and condone, especially by our standards today.

    The saying and defense of “There is no Proof” is just that, a defense, resulting from people who only want to focus on the negative, and often forget that many personal journals of early polygamous wives received their own testimonies of the truthfulness of the practice.

    My feeling is let’s just drop it, it’s no longer practiced, it’s still doctrine, but not acted on or condoned. It’s part of our history. I thank all of the scholars and historians and “anti’s” for bringing details to light. It doesn’t matter. It doesn’t make the church false for those with a foundational testimony.

  59. Sorry, that was a bit long.

  60. Austin,

    I think that’s the only response that I can respect.

    If it was ordained by God I don’t think the LDS should just drop it though. Joseph Smith’s practice of polygamy should be celebrated. He followed God’s expressed will. Currently it seems the church is nothing but embarrassed about it.

    If the LDS church wants to drop the issue, then they really need to drop the doctrine. Cut it out of canon and say that it was wrong for everyone who ever practiced it. Then your hands will be clean of it. But currently, church doctrine endorses the practice (for some at some times).

    There is more to the polygamy issue than sex though. There is also how Joseph practiced it in secret. He publicly decried it while privately practicing it. He disobeyed the laws of the land to practice it (Article of Faith #12) And he lied to his own wife about who and when he was marrying to the point of setting up mock sealing ceremonies so that she would not know that he had already taken new wives.

  61. The same journals that speak of gaining a “testimony” also speak of the sexual relations so the proof is there. Look it up.

    Also, how do you condone sending a man on a mission and marrying his wife while he’s gone?

    This is clearly not a case of providing a woman with a worthy husband as her current husband was on a mission.

    My observation on polygamy, is that all the bad about it could fill volumes, and the only defense that the LDS church has is that we don’t practice it anymore (which is false – it is still practiced), or it was ok, because God said so.

    Something this BIG cannot simply be dropped. To drop it would be a gross example of cognitive disconence that is so rampant in this church.

  62. Today I was reading David Whitmer’s “An Address to All Believers In Christ ”

    He certainly believed that Joseph became a fallen prophet when he started with Polygamy and also the way he altered the original Book Of Commandments ,supposed revelations from The Lord at the time and yet were altered 2 years later and became Doctrine and Covenants .

    David Whitmeyer said that Joseph Smith repented of his polygamy doctrine in his last days and said it was from the Devil and the cause of his downfall according to Isaac Sheens ( Reorganised Mormon) testimony . LDS will dispute this as a lie of course and fair enough . The LDS church seem to think that anyone outside of the LDS church is incapable of being honest and yet they are the ones with Leaders who have a track record of lying compulsively.

    Its something the church likes to keep hidden from people . All the DVD’s I watched as an investigator showed the Early Polygamists as Monogomists . I didn’t like this insult to my intelligence and dignity .It’s subtle the way the church pushes it aside and yet holds to it as an everlasting principle , while distancing itself from it in public .. A bit like Joseph Smith did , Lied in public , Practiced in private …. and the church still does the same .. Distances itself in Public , Accepts it in Private ..

    When one puts all the damaged pieces together and accepts it could all be a fraud then it might start to make sense ….

  63. WOW… I have just come across this website in my own personal research of the LDS church. I would like to add a few idea to the many…
    Please note that I mean no disrespect to anyone or their personal opinions, and warning, my spelling… not so great, but you will get the idea.

    Firstly, it does not take much digging to find that many of the women and men who found themselves in polygamy were miserable. It was difficult for all involved. Brigham Young was greatly apposed to the idea of polygamy for months before he reluctantly aggreed. Not and exact quote but he said something along the lines of

    ” I will take this woman to be my wife, but this day I die as a man”

    It is true that Men would be called to take another wife, break the news to wife one..two etc… and they would have a few days to wrap their heads around the idea.

    To assume that these marriages were not consumated is ludacris at best.

    I agree with the previous comment that as a general rule, it seems that the church is openly opposed to certain aspects, while privately condoning them… a little fishy in my book.

    The other aspect of polygamy that does not sit well with me revolves around a man named John C. Bennett… again not much digging required to learn more of this lovely peice of work.

    My questions are these… If it was okay then, why not now. I mean God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow, right, and at the same time encourages us to not cower to the will of man, but live to be godly, or live to attain godliness (not sure if that is a word) but you get the point.

    Unfortunately there are just so many things that dont add up… I have been a practicing mormon for my whole life, and taught like everyone else that the TEMPLE is the pinnacle of the faith, to get there is what we must all strive for right… So why I ask any who know, is the ceremony so different now that it was when Joseph Smith was here?

    I know a little off topic.. I will refrain from my other questions.

  64. And one more thing… If polygamy is a good thing… WHY does the church cover up the fat that Joseph Smith was married to more than one woman?

    Does anyone remember that Emma took and raised children from women who had died in child birth? I mean is it that much of a stretch to think that these children came from the “OTHER” wives??

  65. Cherryn

    Have you read How Brigham Young and the other polygamists bragged about how great polygamy ia and how destitute and evil monogomy is?

    They soon came to love it because they ‘called’ their prosepctive wives .They picked from the teen girls and concieved with them …

    and if a girl should refuse a polygamous ‘calling’ , well she was damned and threatened in the name of God .

    Plain and precious truths restored .

  66. Elder Joseph

    No I have not gotten that deep with my research yet actually.

    And MAN do you realise how hostile you come across?

    I am not trying to dispute your claims to anything, I am trying to find where the truth lies. Also would greatly welcome any reference in the right direction.

    I am in full understanding of the secrecy surounding polygamy, esp when it comes to Joseph Smith, I would like some answers there, from the church, as to why it is so hushed up?

    And this concept of Polandry, yep I had never EVER heard of that one, until I came across this site.

    THis is all very new to me, but I am open to researching and listening to what others have to say, so long as they are not attacking me!

    I also understand that these topics are HEATED/delicate what ever you want to call them, devout Mormons what to safeguard their faith, while former Mormons feel betrayed by all the secrecy and lies, wishing to OPEN the eyes of those who dont know better.

    Well it is apparent to me that those people who dont want to see the truth will pretty well rationalize ANYTHING in order to keep their precious religion in a good light. And it is perfectly understandable, the ramifications of accepting the truth leave the faithful in ruins.

    SO… What I am personally looking for here…is informatin to get to the truth, factual, reference to the books you got your info from, so that I can read it is context etc…

    But I stand by what I said earlier… Polygamy was either right or it was wrong, there needs to be a stand from the chuch that is one way or the other… God does not change his mind, and he does not bend to the will or political veiws of humanity either.

  67. …the ramifications of accepting the truth leave the faithful in ruins.

    I don’t think you can say this. Look at Richard Bushman. He wrote Rough Stone Rolling about the life of Joseph Smith with all the warts exposed. He is currently a Stake Patriarch and a faithful member of the LDS Church and yet he is able to believe despite knowing the truth.

    Polygamy was either right or it was wrong, there needs to be a stand from the church thatis one way or the other… God does not change his mind, and he does not bend to the will or political veiws of humanity either.

    The Church doesn’t condemn polygamy. We actually still practice it. However, it is not practiced currently in this earthly life. I don’t think the LDS Church will ever denounce polygamy as a false teaching.

    If polygamy is a false teaching then you have to explain why Abraham, Jacob, David and others lived it without any punishment from God. You must also explain why the Bible says that God gave David his wives. Polygamy is biblical and is not condemned by God even though several other sexually related sins are specifically mentioned (i.e. homosexuality, bestiality, incest, adultery, rape). Nowhere do you find a condemnation of Abraham or anyone else’s polygamous marriages.

    The few places in Mormon scriptures where it does condemn polygamy it is always a case where the person living it was not authorized by God to do so.

  68. Cherryn,
    Check out Todd Compton’s book “In sacred loneliness” He details each marriage in the front with dates, ages of the wives etc. His book is considered the leading authority on the subject. He is a member of the LDS Church.

  69. Jay…

    The comment I made about the Faithful in ruins, was based on that initial reaction to the truth, then the picking up of the pieces and putting it all back together in a way that gives you peace.
    I am pretty sure that Richard Bushman had to go through some searching, pondering and prayer before becoming an advocate for the church.
    I know that that is an assumption, but the thuth is pretty shocking, and for someone born into the church and raise LDS, the realization of some of these historical truths rock you to the core.

    I can tell you that right now I feel in ruins.

    also…
    Thanks for the book, I will check it out 🙂

  70. Jay,

    According to the bible, God also authorized concubines (which is just another term for whore or adulterous relationship). God also authorized incest in the case of Lot and his 2 daughters.

    This type of inconsistency in the bible makes it an unworthy justification.

    Plus I don’t think God ever came down and told anyone that polygamy was ok for them. That justification has no merit.

  71. Jay
    there is no indication in the bible that Abraham was commanded to practice polygamy . If Polygamy was the order then Adam would have had more than Eve given to him …

    Using the old testament this way means anyone can justify murder , incest , rape etc on the same assertion that God commanded it . This makes people vulnerable to exploitation by so called ‘Called Of God ‘ Prophets /Leaders .

    Joseph Smith used this to the max .
    1 He had revelation to marry young teens and justify his secret polygamy ( D&C 132)
    2 He had revelation that church members should support him with food rainment and provide for him whatever he needs .( D&C43:13)
    3 He had revelation that the members should build him a house (D&C41:7)
    4 He had revelation that he shouldn’t go to work ( D&C24:9)
    5 He had revelation that he should have a boarding house built for him , including a bar …(D&C124:56) Was this a hotel of sort ?
    6 He had revelation to start a bank and went bankrupt and fled his creditors .
    7 He had revelation to ask for other mens wives and married 11 of them .

    When you see it for what it is , it becomes worryingly obvious that he was a Fraud preying on gullible vitims.

    If this is Jesus Christ behind all this then I don’t want to know him .

  72. My wife and I were just talking about this issue tonight (polyandry of JS and BY) and I came across this site.

    Cherryn, you may be choosing a tough/painful road to go down by researcing this topic, when you find truth, you might not be able to turn back. I know this from experience.

    (Little Background)
    My wife (of 7 years +2 kids) and I were married in the temple, I am an RM, we both grew up in the church and have both always been active, full tithe payers, w/callings, living in the heart of happy valley. I have had many conformations of the spirit and I have always “KNOWN” the church was true and JS a prophet etc.

    All that being said, 3.5 years ago, this issue of JS and his polyandry was the first time I ever did any real in-depth research regarding an “anti-mormon” claim which I did simply to put to rest something a co-worker said: “JS slept with other men’s wives”. His words cut deeply and it angered me, at the same time it sounded so absurd and easy to disprove, after all I had a testimony of this “great” man, I “KNEW” JS was a prophet of God.

    My co-worker, honestly one of the most intellegent/high IQ persons I know, was well versed in church history and had read volumes of related books for years (leading to his apostasy 10 years earlier). Knowing he likely had some basis for his claim, I assumed it was simply “anti-mormon lies” after all I had seen my fair share of them on my mission and they only served to increase my faith as Jayleen said above.

    Knowing my co-worker wouldn’t accept me simply bearing my testimony about JS as a valid rebuttal to his claim I embarked on a journey that has changed my life forever. Not long into my research an internal struggle began as the quick and easy rebuttal to that horrible claim did not come as expected. Using every related source I could find on the internet and in print, the mountain of evidence started piling up, making my heart sink. As I read source after source, journal entries, etc. I couldn’t help but reflect on my own marriage and wife whom I love as I read the experiences of these young women and the horrors of their experiences, thinking how Emma must have felt with her broken heart, not the mention the men who were sent away “on church business” or simply just “left out of the loop” as these secret marriages were taking place. The evidence was devastating and I was left dumbfounded.

    After about a solid month of cognitive dissonance on the issue and trying to use FARMS or ANY apologist as a way out of what I discovered I was slapped in the face by the truth and I couldn’t deny it no matter how much I wanted to or how much it conflicted with what I had thought to be to the contrary. Not only was JS’s polygamy and polyandry true, the apologists did nothing but further confirm it in their anecdotal apologetics. As bad as I wanted to internalize and truly believe the apologists’ justifications and explinations for the practice, I felt like they were written for someone who had never looked at the evidence to the contrary. I felt my intelligence was insulted to say the least, but the worst part was how they undermine these women and disgraced their memories because this part of mormon history is not convenient nowadays. These were “REAL” people who had “REAL” struggles who pleaded with the Lord for deliverance, families were destroyed, hearts broken, innocence lost, authority abused.

    Back to what I was saying at the top to Cherryn and my conclusion. As painful as the above experience was for me I didn’t lose my testimony then, rather this issue was just the ‘catalyst’ that made me first take a step back from my arrogant “I have the TRUTH” “I KNOW…” position and realize “maybe I DON’T know”. It took 2.5 years with a sincere desire to find out the truth regarding the origins of the church, BOM, priesthood, etc. before I ultimately left the church (followed a year later my wife).

    Although we are both very happy and confident now after leaving, I have seen others lose their marriages and families over the church. When I told my wife I didn’t believe anymore (after 2 years of researching in private) she said that she wished I were dead. I tried to explain to her how hard this was for me and why I felt the way that I did and why I had come to the conclusions I had but she wouldn’t listen, it was too painful. It wasn’t too long however before I noticed that she started doing her own research. I tried to talk to her about it, but she didn’t want any input from me who was an “apostate”, she talked to her church leaders, read books, etc. but after 8 months of reading she came to the same conclusion I had and that she can’t go back knowing what she knows now. Our marriage is stronger now than it ever has been and our connection and level of understanding is so much stronger.

    So I say all this I guess because the church is such an integral part of our lives, family, and sometimes community, we all come from different backgrounds and levels of exposure to certain things with different levels of spirituals experiences etc. but once you start down the “inquisitive” path you might not like what you find as what you find may not be compatible with your spouse or family, or even yourself.

    Good luck to all of you in your search for truth and happiness, I hope you find both.

  73. Thank you 🙂 You have no idea how much that just helped me!

  74. there is no indication in the bible that Abraham was commanded to practice polygamy . If Polygamy was the order then Adam would have had more than Eve given to him …

    More importantly there is no condemnation of polygamy in any part of the Bible. If it is such a deplorable practice God would have spoken out against it. LDS doctrine states that polygamy is only “right” when commanded of God. Therefore it would be perfectly acceptable if only some people practiced it and others did not.

    Using the old testament this way means anyone can justify murder , incest , rape etc on the same assertion that God commanded it.

    No, it doesn’t. The Bible does condemn the other things you mention, it does not condemn polygamy.

    Joseph Smith used this to the max .
    1 He had revelation to marry young teens and justify his secret polygamy ( D&C 132)

    He only married one young teen (14 yrs old) the rest were 17 or above. So you plurality of young teen is a bit misleading.

    2 He had revelation that church members should support him with food rainment and provide for him whatever he needs .( D&C43:13)

    Isn’t this what is done in all churches? I don’t really think this is a very far fetched idea.

    3 He had revelation that the members should build him a house (D&C41:7)

    4 He had revelation that he shouldn’t go to work ( D&C24:9)

    Again paid clergy of almost all Christian denominations have their lodging and food paid for as well as a salary. They can’t work because their whole life is involved with spreading the gospel of Christ.

    5 He had revelation that he should have a boarding house built for him , including a bar …(D&C124:56) Was this a hotel of sort ?

    I’ll give you the bar reference. It really wouldn’t surprise me. The Word of Wisdom was not really enforced to much back then. As for building a boarding house, Joseph had many people stay at his own house all the time, I don’t think this is a wild request either.

    6 He had revelation to start a bank and went bankrupt and fled his creditors .

    Do you have the revelation? (There’s no reference for this one). Although I do know that what you said happened, I wasn’t aware that God told him to start the bank.

    7 He had revelation to ask for other mens wives and married 11 of them .

    I believe these were for eternity only not for this life. As such the marriages are completely in line with LDS teachings and not offensive to me. I don’t believe that Joseph had sex with these women. To date no one has shown me evidence to the contrary.

  75. Jay, Do you accept that JS had sex with his non-married polygamous wives?

  76. There is good reason to believe that he did have sex with at least some of them, although there is no physical evidence (children) to prove this.


Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s

Categories

%d bloggers like this: