Posted by: Jay | April 21, 2007

Homosexuality and Christians

Is homosexuality compatible with Christian teachings? As more pressure is exerted in our society to accept homosexuals, I have personally struggled with this question. As I have read the scriptures, the only thing I’ve been able to conclude that it is not. I have met some openly homosexual people and have listen to others explain their experiences. These have always been positive encounters. Though my experiences with homosexuals have not been able to convince me that it is a healthy lifestyle sanctioned by God, it has led me to believe that there may be several reasons why someone identifies themselves as having same sex attraction. What are some of your thoughts on same sex attraction? What are the causes? Is it really a choice? I would especially like to hear from those that deal with this issue on a personal basis.

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Responses

  1. I know that this one above all is a tricky question… but here is my response… GOD does not make mistakes… right!

    Now let me ask this one… satistics say that over 90% of homosexual people were sexually abused by a member of the same sex in their youth… I know that plays a part…but what about that 10% did God just make a mistake and wire them differently? Or were they made that way for a reason?

    Again, God does not make mistakes, I belive we are in great need of loving people for who they are!

    • Where did you get those statistics? There’s plenty of evidence to show them to be completely false. Much different statistics can be easily found.

  2. Cherryn,

    I totally agree. I do not have a problem with anyone that is gay. I have met a few people that are gay and I have always had a great conversation. The issue I have is that the bible is clear in condemning the act of homosexuality.

    I’m not sure about the 90% statistic. Most of the people I’ve listened and talked to say that there was no abuse, they have just always felt an attraction to the same sex. It’s hard for me to understand how God can make someone that way and then condemn them when they act on their God given impulses.

  3. Well, if God doesn’t make mistakes, why are there Hermophrodites?

    Maybe God just doesn’t get involved and the wiring is luck of the draw.

    Maybe the biblical condemnation is not of God, but of man.

    I for one do not think that homosexuality is a choice.

  4. What do you mean?

    “Maybe the biblical condemnation is not of God, but of man.”

    I just need a little more clarification if you would indulge me…

  5. Rick,

    The more I learn about homosexuality, the more I am convinced that it is not a simple cut and dry issue. I believe there are different kinds of homosexuality and different reasons why people are homosexual. Some do choose to be that way because of abuse or after being ridiculed for “acting” like a gay person (e.g. a guy that likes to shop or has a high voice).

    However, after talking with and listening to several gay people, I am persuaded to believe that it is not always a choice. I think there are many people that identify themselves as homosexual that are born with those feelings for whatever reason. These are the people that confuse me. I don’t know how to reconcile that God would make someone one way and then condemn them for it.

  6. Jay,

    I feel there could be people born with these tendences(sp?), but I think a good percentage of people may choose this lifestyle because it has become a cool trend. I can’t seem to keep it out of my home, from television shows, movies, reality shows “family sitcoms” MTV, Hollywood actors and even politicians “coming out” the news, the list goes on and on.

    Being Gay has become cool. Now don’t get me wrong, I don’t think this explains it all, I just think it explains a lot.

    My older sister came “out” a few years ago. She has her reasons, but I have known her all my life and I know how difficult her life has been. She had 3 dads, a real one who didn’t care, a step dad who physically abused her and another step dad who mentally abused her. She HATES men, therfore (in my opinion) turned to women. I think this happens a lot, and I also think it is understandable.

    What ever the case may be though it is not ok with God. He is very clear on this. But even though some of His children are lost He STILL loves them. How fortunate we are to have such a loving Father, it’s too bad us humans refuse to follow His love and example!

    (I can’t wait for my sister’s heart to be healed and for her to know she DOES have a Father who loves her!)

    • Cool? What’s ‘cool’ about being discriminated against, bashed, and being excluded from your church?
      It’s certainly not a choice. Did you choose to be heterosexual? I’ve never met a gay person who said they chose to be gay.

  7. I do tend to believe that Homosexuals are genuine in their desires and don’t believe its a chosen desire …however

    Its difficult because if I had a Son , I admit I would be dissapointed and probably very saddened if he was homosexual , so I may sound a little Hypocritical …. I’d probably try any help to see if perhaps he was mistaken ? ( and hope he was ) ..

    but at the same time I couldn’t hate him or others ..

    This human race is bizarre ! lol and I include myself in that .

  8. I do not think that being gay has become cool, I just think that it is more openly talked about!

    There are those that spout the whole, no where else, no other species has gay relationships … not true at all… apes for ex…

    And male/male sexual experience has been a right of passage into adulthood for many cultures.

    Now for the record, I personally am not Gay, but the only reason I HAD thought that it was evil is because of what I was TOLD as a child.

    Now to the point… my parents also told me that Black people had sinned and were marked with blackness to prove that. UMM.. NO, I do not agree with or believe that for one second. Nor do I believe that someone from a different race or religion is less of a person than me becasue I have white skin or that I believe in a certain God…

    Many homosexual people HAVE been sexally abused, it is a fact and just like any abuse it needs to be healed and I truly feel for those out there who have been abused I do not want to detract from that pain at all, but those that have not, what about them? The way they feel and their desires are just as real as ours (heterosexuals) Those people are the ones I am talking about.. are they sinning by acting on their real feelings and desires or are we? Where is the middle groud… is there any?

  9. Cherryn,

    I know this wasn’t the main point of your post, but I’m going to call you on it anyway because you brought it up. In what cultures is having homosexual experiences a right of passage? Apes have gay relations? Do you have any literature that backs up your claims?

    I once heard a lady from the San Diego zoo say that monkeys were exhibiting “gay” behavior. Then I learned what they were really doing was “sword fighting” with their penis’ (little boys to this sometimes). That doesn’t amount to being gay in my book. To me that is just two animals playing around. It’s weird but not gay. Gay is being sexually attracted to the same sex to the exclusion of the opposite sex.

    I’ve also heard gay activists say that 10% of all animals are gay. This statistic comes from research that was found later to have problems. If you really think about it there can’t be a large percentage of a population that is gay or it will go extinct (gay relations don’t yield children).

    Of all the self admitted gays that I have talked to or listened to, only one said he was sexually abused and blamed his homosexuality on that. The rest claim to be born with a desire for the opposite sex. They even can remember the first time they found someone of the opposite sex attractive.

    I’m not sure that there is any middle ground. The blacks and the priesthood thing was never rooted in scripture, so that had to change eventually, but homosexuality is expressly condemned by the bible. I know some people that don’t think it is, but for the life of me I don’t see how they interpret Old and New Testament scriptures so they don’t condemn homosexuality. I just don’t ever see this policy being changed because it is so deeply couched in the scriptures.

  10. Jay I dont have the exact reference, but I will find it if you want me to… I specifically remember learning that Japanese culture had a rite of passage to adulthood for boys involving a sexual act with another male, I do not believe that this was something that continued, it was a one time act, but it happened…I remember hearing it about another culture too… one of those unspoken things that happened you know.

    And to the monkeys… it was not penis sword fighting, it was the actual act of sex. I guess it would be more Bisexual behaviour because the sex was not exclusively male/male… which would explain why the species is able to reproduce, however, it was definately monkey sex!

  11. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_animals_displaying_homosexual_behavior

    This is a link to all the animals on the planet that display homosexual behavior.

  12. Researchers have long known that same-sex erotic contact is common among apes. But de Waal’s bonobo research as well as that recently presented by other authors suggest a more provocative conclusion: that homosexuality is consonant with the survival of the species. “Humans have created the myth that sexuality can be justified only by reproduction, which by definition limits it to hetero sex,” says Michael Bronski, author of The Pleasure Principle: Culture, Backlash, and the Struggle for Gay Freedom. “But here is an animal society that uses homosexuality to improve its social life.”

  13. http://epistle.us/hbarticles/neareast.html

    This site show reference to MANY rites of passage through homosexual encounters in ancient civilizations. Many different cultures accepted homosexual behaviour as long as it was not with your family members, and as long as you did not force it on anyone else (rape).

    Yes the Bible condems the act, but it is by no means a new concept.

  14. Bruce Bagemihl’s book is appears to be very controversial and highlights what is claimed to be “homosexual or transgender behavior of one or more of the following kinds: sex, courtship, affection, pair bonding, or parenting”. I’ll have to see the book to know what his definition of homosexual is.

    I suspect I’ll find it is loosely any “affection” shown toward the same sex (not what I consider gay), but I’m open to the idea that homosexuality could exist in nature. As of now I have only heard this theory (i.e. the 10% theory) proclaimed by activists, not credible scientists. If it’s true then it’s true and I’ll alway bow to truth.

  15. Well, I am not a Gay activist Jay, I can assure you of that, I do know that I was sexually abused as a child though and through all of my therapy I have been told constantly about the factual %’s of abuse relating to gay behavior and tendancies,

    However, I have not read it for myself specifically, I will admit that it may be something that was word of mouth passed from one therapist to another, but I am not sure. ALL of the gay people that I know and have friendships with, ALL of them were abused as children.

  16. It would be okay if you were. All I’m saying is that the people I have heard this from had bias for saying it in the first place, which makes the statement suspect in my opinion.

    One thing is for sure, there is no “gay” gene know at present. There are some suggestive studies, but nothing that proves being gay is genetic. This is what leads me to believe that there is more to it than just genes. Abuse and the nature of it would be a big factor in some cases I would think, but like I said most of the homosexuals I have run into (which is not that many) do not admit to being abused.

  17. Jay you say there is no” Gay” gene ?

    There are no Israelite genes in American Indians either 🙂

    I’m sure FAIRSand FARMS could spin an excuse for you ….. lol

    The bible condemns liars in the same verse as homosexuals so have you read Joseph Smiths Address To Dissenters in Nauvoo ? Full of his arrogant lies …. yet he holds the keys to our entrance in CK according to Brigham Young ?
    So maybe there are all the Gays with him then helping him with all the keys to the many mansions ..lol

  18. EJ,

    So, is your thesis that all sin is alike. So it doesn’t matter that someone may choose to sin by being homosexual because WE just choose to sin in some different way (lying, hating, swearing, etc.)?

  19. Jay,

    They are zooming in on the Gay DNA that you alluded to earlier. They have found similarities in Gay males that do not exist in non Gay males.

    Many articles on this. Here is one of the first:

    http://xo.typepad.com/blog/2005/01/gay_dna_found.html

  20. This article is 2 years old. I think if they had really discovered gay genes it would be all over the news by now. What they have really found is something they think might be the answer. There is no journal article referenced, meaning that all of this is preliminary work and no real study has been done.

    However, I tend to agree with the following statement from the short article, “Our best guess is that multiple genes, potentially interacting with environmental influences, explain differences in sexual orientation.”

    Thanks for the article Rick. If you find anymore let me know.

  21. Jay ,

    Have you seen these videos on You tube of the experiences of gay mormon boys and the church’s attempt to cure them at BYU ?

  22. I have not, thanks for pointing them out. I’ll watch it. I have heard that there were some pretty weird things done to “cure” homosexuals at BYU. I think this was back when the Church thought it was a choice. I don’t think it believes that anymore.

    I’ve heard several statements from GA’s here and there that homosexuals just have to remain celibate during their mortal life. This suggests that they don’t think that same sex attraction can be cured, at least in some cases.

  23. I stumbled upon your website and thought I’d comment.

    My brother “came out” 2 years ago. I didn’t understand it and all. Whereas I don’t support the gay habits I support my brother. Christ has taught us unconditional love and we have been taught to be like Christ. I think this topic is a major issue in our church and I think many members not fully understanding the simple principles. I actually sat in an institute class recently where the instructor brought up this topic. Suddenly everyone had to put in their negativity towards the issue. It was difficult to have to stand up for something when everyone is so blindsided by it.

    I have also heard GA’s specifically say if they are to have a celibate life then they are just like everyone else. It makes sense when you think about your own personal life. I believe it’s just a temptation– like pornography or the Word of Wisdom. Everyone will have their trials and struggles; Christ is the only perfect person that walked this planet. No one is perfect and I think church members need to understand this. We didnt understand the entire situation when it first happened, but you have to know just like anyone else struggling with a temptation they will fall and they are going to need to have someone to catch them when they do.

  24. Jill,
    I’m glad you left a comment. I’m always interested in hearing the opinion of those that are affected directly by this issue. Do you think your brother chose his lifestyle or was he born that way?

  25. I think it is a temptation and that he has chosen to live his life like this. We are all tempted; everyone of us will go one way or the other– whatever we think is right or not. The things we choose make us who we are; who God made us to be. I do believe circumstances may lead a person to have these tendencies and through these tendencies they choose what they want. I dont believe he really wants to have this lifestyle but he has chosen his way just like I choose mine. He still attends church (as far as he tells me he does) and he believes in the church. It’s just a temptation he is fighting right now.

    I do need to say how very discouraging it is dealing with members who think to bash on Homosexuality. I believe that the GA’s should discuss the topic more fully because the way the members do talk about it is in no way right. Its a constant uphill battle.

  26. Jill,

    I think it takes actually knowing a person that is homosexual or putting yourself in their shoes before you can truly BEGIN to understand it. For many Christians it is an issue with which they have no personal connection and therefore easy for them to judge. When we are personally affected (are homosexual or know someone that is) it becomes much harder to be so judgmental. I’ve only met a few openly homosexual people and they’ve always been generous and kind. I’ve also listened to many homosexuals describe their experience growing up. Though there is very little scientific evidence to prove it right now I believe that many homosexuals are born with attraction to the same sex. There is nothing they can do about it. I think the Church is coming to that realization also. Recently they published a pamphlet that basically concedes the point. I’m hopeful that in the future gays will be much more accepted by LDS members as well as Christians in general, but you can’t change 2000+ years of thinking in only 50 years, it’s going to take time.

  27. Jill,
    I have come to the same conclusion you have, that homosexuality is a temptation that must be overcome. Every one has their “favorite” sin (or not-so-favorite when you are trying to overcome it and ask Christ to change you.) I think you would be hard pressed to find a person who honestly has NEVER in their life had a same-sex attraction thought. Everyone, to one degree or another, has been tempted with most sins at one time or another. Just as some are more susceptible to alcoholism or pornography, I believe that some are more susceptible to homosexuality. These children of God may be those who we label as having “same-sex attraction.” It is nevertheless a sin to ACT upon, and the temptation must not be indulged. I don’t consider myself condemned because I am tempted by my “favorite” sin, just as I do not condemn those tempted by same-sex attraction. Bottom line…we must all overcome our “favorite” sin, and give it to Christ. Let him cleanse us and change our hearts. My favorite sin always nags in the back of my mind…to a much lesser extent when I’m reading my scriptures and praying a lot. As long as each of us can beat that strongest temptation through the mercies of our Savior, he will save us…we must let Him save us. We must do all we can, then beg Christ to do the rest…if we are sincere, I know he will. Those with same-sex attraction are not exempt from this requirement to overcome through the atonement.

  28. It does seem that the scientific data showing homosexuality as being genetic is growing; from what I have read and researched I think it will be hard to definitively prove someone is born that way, as there also seems to be strong evidence that events and environment can play a part as well. I do not believe that it is a choice someone makes especially someone that is raised in a culture that views it as a sin or unnatural or as President Kimball described it as “that sin against nature” Or as Hinckley said a few times on Larry King “they have a problem”

    Regardless of whether it is genetic or a product of something else that was beyond a person’s control (Meaning you have no control regarding the environment and influences in your early childhood development) it still is not a choice.

    Jill

    I am a little confused as to what you mean by not liking the way the Church leaders or members of the church bash homosexuality when you yourself view it as a sin or a problem, so at best you can tolerate your brother and not truly accept him for who he is but even more troublesome “He still attends church (as far as he tells me he does) and he believes in the church. It’s just a temptation he is fighting right now.” Will he be able to accept and love himself?

    Jay as you said “homosexuals are born with attraction to the same sex. There is nothing they can do about it. I think the Church is coming to that realization also. Recently they published a pamphlet that basically concedes the point.” However they are very actively opposed to same sex marriage and any sexual or intimate relationship out of marriage is a sin.

    I have personally known and have had homosexual family members that were basically suicidal with self hatred. There was a time in my life that I thought they brought this on themselves for “choosing” such a lifestyle. When the fact of the matter is that there is absolutely no reason that they couldn’t have had a wonderful life and relationship with a loving companion having the opportunity to experience intimacy and love without feeling such self hatred. Short of allowing them to experience love and intimacy within the same constraints allowed heterosexual couples and considering it just a “temptation” to be overcome is gay bashing at some level it is just a matter of degrees.

  29. I have evolved so far from the religious right that the thought of homosexuality being a sin is now laughable to me. A sin against what, and why? A sin against God? How and why?

    With all due respect, to state that Homosexuality is merely a temptation is grossly simplistic. All the homosexuals that I know, are grossed out at the thought of heterosexual relations the same as heteros are grossed out by homosexual relations. This is not a temptation. I don’t think I would ever choose a lifestyle where I would be ridiculed, beaten, killed, discriminated against, etc. etc. just because of a temptation.

  30. …they [The LDS Church] are very actively opposed to same sex marriage and any sexual or intimate relationship out of marriage is a sin.

    Yes, but they were also very opposed to blacks having the priesthood before 1978 and that changed. I think it may all take time. There are some major hurdles to jump over though. The scriptures are very plain in their condemnation of homosexual sex. I’m not sure how Christians can get around that. But for all I know they (The LDS Church) thought the same thing about blacks and the priesthood, but we all know how that turned out.

    A sin against what, and why? A sin against God? How and why?

    BR,
    If you don’t believe in that Bible it’s pretty easy to dismiss homosexuality as insignificant. However, the Bible is straightforward about condemning homosexuality and not just in one place, it’s in the OT and NT several times. This makes it extremely difficult for a Christian to accept it. The best they can do is to equate it with any other sin and leave it at that.

    I don’t think I would ever choose a lifestyle where I would be ridiculed, beaten, killed, discriminated against, etc. etc. just because of a temptation.

    This kind of statement is often repeated. It really has little merit because of course people will choose to live in ways that are not in their best interest. Prostitutes do it all the time. I think the two are very different, but I’m just pointing out that some people do choose to live lifestyles that are out of the norm despite the threat of violence, humiliation, etc. I’m sure they all have their individual motivation for doing so.

  31. Jay

    I was watching a program about the Bible they mentioned in regards to homosexuality it could be argued if you go back to the words or phrases the passages were translated from it more accurately describes and is talking about the common practice, that was very common especially in Rome, of Men using young male prostitutes.

    Have you ever heard this? Could be the Churches out, does the Book of Mormon say anything in regards to homosexuality? I can’t remember off hand.

  32. Coventry,
    Very interesting. I’ll have to do some more searching about what you heard. If that is true it may be a way for Christianity to wiggle out of the corner they’ve painted themselves into (although it’s still going to take time for people to let go of their prejudices).

    Off hand I don’t believe the Book of Mormon has any language directly against homosexual sex like the Bible does. As far as I remember it only discusses premarital sex, which homosexuality would fall under.

  33. Leviticus 18 makes it pretty clear that homosexual sex is prohibited. It also prohibits bestiality and other improper sexual practices. I don’t see any wiggle room.

    Romans 1:26-27 speaks of “vile affections,” dishonoring their bodies between themselves, and women using their bodies unnaturally. (Natural use produces children.) It talks of men “leaving the use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men working with men that which is unseemly” Here again it suggests that homosexuality is unnatural and vile. I don’t see any wiggle room.

    God’s plan includes marriage and procreation, bringing existent spirits to the earth. Jay makes a good point that homosexuality necessarily falls under fornication, or sex outside the marriage covenant.

  34. The verses in Romans may be suggestive of homosexuality, but aren’t specific enough for certainty. Also, if we wanted to go by all the words out of Paul’s mouth, I’d have to grow my hair out, keep silence in public, and submit myself to my (nonexistent) husband. Elsewhere in the New Testament, it speaks of the conversion of a eunuch–apparently God wasn’t so afraid of a bit of gender-bending that he would disallow a eunuch from baptism. The old Testament forbids homosexuality, but it also forbids the eating of meat and milk together. The new law, shown in the New Testament, is a lot more liberal.

    I should be surprized at the ignorance shown in so many of these responses (unfortunately, this kind of ignorance is common, so I’m not). First off, very few homosexuals were sexually abused–sometimes counselors (especially in religion-based counseling services) will inflate the numbers, but the true numbers are actually very, very low. Second, how the devil could people think that being gay is “cool” right now? Yeah, it is so cool to be disowned by your friends and family. It is so cool to be threatened with violence or even death. It is so cool not to be able to express affection for the one you love because you’re afraid someone might hurt you. What? You really think that’s cool? Then I love the way you play it down “it’s just a temptation people have–everyone has trials.” Not like this. It’s not just a physical attraction for the same sex, it’s an emotional attraction, too. You fall in love with the same gender. How would you feel if the person you loved the most in the world were permanently off-limits to you–and you were told that you were a horrible, sinful, vile person for loving the one you love? Try to experience that in your mind. How would that feel to you?

  35. The verses in Romans may be suggestive of homosexuality, but aren’t specific enough for certainty.

    I’d like to think that but it’s a little hard to think that when the Bible says, “[men] leaving the use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another” it isn’t talking about homosexuality. Especially when there is very similar speech in the OT.

    if we wanted to go by all the words out of Paul’s mouth, I’d have to grow my hair out, keep silence in public, and submit myself to my (nonexistent) husband.

    That’s a good point, but some Christians do take that literally and think women should behave that way. Thankfully, I’m not one of them. It is interesting that even the NT has odd things like this in it.

    the conversion of a eunuch–apparently God wasn’t so afraid of a bit of gender-bending that he would disallow a eunuch from baptism.

    A eunuch is a little different. Some were made eunuchs not by choice. To me it’s kind of an anti-sexual thing, much different than either homo or heterosexuality.

    the New Testament, is a lot more liberal.

    While the “new law” may be more liberal on food consumption it is much more strict on other things (i.e. just look at a woman wrong is adultery). So to generalize and say that Christ made things more liberal is a bit misleading.

    …very few homosexuals were sexually abused–sometimes counselors (especially in religion-based counseling services) will inflate the numbers, but the true numbers are actually very, very low.

    If you can’t trust counselors to tell the truth even non-religious ones where are you getting your information from? I’d think that counselors are in the best position to determine those numbers. I don’t think that most homosexuality is necessarily caused by abuse, I believe it can be a trigger for some people. I tend to think more and more that most gay people are just born that way and can’t help the feelings they have.

    …how the devil could people think that being gay is “cool” right now?

    Well at the very least it is more socially acceptable now days to be gay, thus the popularity of Will and Grace (even among Mormon households). I think though that the “coolness” factor can be overplayed and differs according to the part of the country you live in (e.g. NE U.S. OK, W. coast OK, but SE and Mid-West U.S. watch out!)

    “it’s just a temptation people have–everyone has trials.”

    I think this is what Christians have to say to still believe the way they do. It’s hard to justify the behavior any other way because doing it would force them to reject the Bible. What they don’t realize is that the Bible isn’t perfect and has flaws. This may be one of them, but it is there and it’s confusing a lot of people that can’t understand why God would condemn otherwise good people (not all homosexuals fit the stereotypical “flaming crazy” gay person). The few gays I have met are professionals very articulate and above all nice, good people.

  36. It is widely understood that Paul was the most misogynistic of the prophets (read any of the epistles and that is immediately apparent), so of course he would think a woman’s “natural use” would be as the sexual object for a man. Paul also, as a very strict Jewish Roman citizen, had a lot of trouble with the other cultures to whom he was proselyting, and many of whom had rites that involved homosexual practices. Because of Paul’s strict Jewish sense, he felt the need to rid these people of all remnants of their culture–of course he wasn’t able to, we still celebrate holidays to mark the seasons like Christmas and Easter, but we’ve Christianized them. Paul did manage to demonize many cultural rites, though.

    Jay, I don’t understand your point about the woman taken in adultery. In the OT she would have been stoned, in the NT, Jesus prevents her being stoned and tells her to go her way and sin no more. The message of the OT is “you do not understand the message of my commandments, so you must obey the very minutia of my law.” The message of the NT is, “Love God and love your neighbor.” The people who get caught up in the gay-bashing trap tend to be minutia-of-law people.

    You do have to realize that counselors who are coming from a religious pov have an agenda. Their religion is usually more important to them than their career, and that affects their accuracy in their work. If their agenda is to “cure” people of homosexuality, they will use whatever facts or figures they can to prove that being gay is a choice. They can’t accept that some people might be gay from birth. It doesn’t fit in with the idea that God loves all his children, but would make some so particularly fallible to “sin.” Or it opens up the door to the idea that homosexuality may not be a sin, but simply a cultural more–and they can’t get past the idea that it is just so icky.

    Once again, I assure you it’s not just a temptation or a trial people have. If you have the guts and think you can work it out, I dare you for a week to behave in public with your wife as though you are no more than friends–no touching, holding hands, hugs, kisses. No saying sweetie, no nicknames, nothing of that sort–and remember that any sort of sexual contact would equal excommunication. That’s what it’s like. Try it if you want to.

  37. It is widely understood that Paul was the most misogynistic of the prophets

    I get leery when people have to point out that something is widely understood. Shouldn’t I know it if it is widely understood or is it because I’m a guy that I just don’t get it?

    …so of course he would think a woman’s “natural use” would be as the sexual object for a man.

    I think his statement also implies that a man’s nature use is as a sexual object for a woman. Your choice of words makes you sound like a misandrist rather than an impassionate observer.

    Jay, I don’t understand your point about the woman taken in adultery.

    Your misunderstanding is probably my fault. I wasn’t speaking of the woman caught in adultery I was speaking of Jesus’ teaching about what adultery is. He taught that if a man look at a woman to lust after her he had already committed adultery in his heart. That does not sound very liberal to me.

    The people who get caught up in the gay-bashing trap tend to be minutia-of-law people.

    I agree with you.

    If their agenda is to “cure” people of homosexuality, they will use whatever facts or figures they can to prove that being gay is a choice.

    Homosexuality is such a hot button issue, I think you could say the same thing about people that think you are born gay. Look at all the effort that has been and is being put into finding a “gay gene”. They continue to look and can’t find it. I dare say they will continue to look trying to “prove they are right. In the end I believe the truth is somewhere in the middle. Not all gay people are born gay but many are. There is no one gene that makes someone gay but someones DNA probably has some kind of influence. Everyone has a dog in the fight and because of that are not objective as they should be.

    Once again, I assure you it’s not just a temptation or a trial people have.

    I don’t think it is just a temptation. I think other people said that in this post, not me.

    If you have the guts and think you can work it out, I dare you for a week to behave in public with your wife…

    An interesting challenge.

  38. Perhaps you don’t see Paul as a misogynist because you do see him as a prophet–and thus, if not infallible, not as given to the errors of judgment most humans are subject to. I don’t see men as sexual objects, but it was the cultural norm of the day (and in many cases still is the cultural norm) to see women as sexual objects–and the “natural use of women” as sexual. Of course, man’s natural use has never been primarily sexual or reproductive, as men have in most societies been seen as the warriors, the breadwinners, the prophets, the priests, the leaders–do you need me to go on? Paul boils down women’s natural use to the sexual (reproductive)–but he in his epistle is writing to the men, who are the thinkers, the prophets, the warriors, the kings. Women in society are merely there to ensure that the man’s seed is continued.

  39. I think I can agree with you that the Bible is written overwhelmingly from a male perspective and in many instances is sexist in its speech. I have no doubt that this was how things were back then. I do not view Paul as even close to perfect or infallible or any other Prophet or leader of the Bible, save Christ himself. So, it doesn’t surprise me to hear Paul misspeak about womens behavior in public.

    I think this is an interesting topic you have brought up. I’m not very informed about sexism and religion other than what I have observed on my own, but I do believe it exists. However, there is no arguing that a woman is the primary nurturer of children. Men have simply evolved away from it, though they still play a major role. They are the ones that carry the baby to birth and feed it after it arrives in some cultures the mother breast feeds the baby for 5 years! I think these facts are why its hard to separate women from sex and child baring. I know they are much more than that (My wife is more intelligent than me in many areas) I’m just saying that is the general perception right or wrong.

    This topic would make a great post. I know there have been several talks given by LDS leaders about a woman staying home to nurture her children and how she should take care of her children. Did you hear the talk “Mothers who know” last Fall? I know it made quite few women upset and I understand why.


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