Posted by: Jay | July 19, 2007

September Dawn Trailer

I think this movie is going to start some great discusion with non-LDS and LDS alike. I can’t wait! What do you think?



  1. The trailer makes it look like they are putting the blame on BY. I hope this is based on fact and not rumor and assumption.

    The LDS church is already bracing for this film by writing an Ensign article about the MMM giving the LDS version of what happened, accepting some blame, but stopping far short of BY, and trying to even justify to some degree by setting the mood of the time.

    Personally I think the truth lies somewhere in between. I don’t think the LDS is coming totally clean on this, and I don’t believe what radical antis are saying either. The sad thing is that I don’t trust the LDS leadership to tell the truth based on the spotty track record. Until the LDS church accepts and admits to covering up past falsehoods, I’m not sure I will ever trust them again.

  2. I believe that like anything else that is negative towards the LDS church they will downplay it and not give much disucussion to it at all. Which is sad that they do that EVERY time something negative comes up about the church.

    (side note) Since I havent posted on any forums in a while I wanted to update you on my situationg Jay. I am now currently in a marriage where I have to go to church and follow the doctrines of the LDS church or lose my kids. My wife told me that she will leave if I stop going. So I am forced to go to church that I dont believe in, smile and act like I believe in it, just so my kids stay a part of my life.

  3. Rick,
    I don’t believe that BY ordered MMM. I do believe there is strong circumstantial evidence showing BY may have ordered it, but that is not proof. There is just as strong evidence to show that he had nothing to do with it. So basically people are left to believe what they want. If we are fair though we have to say he is innocent until proven guilty. By the way welcome back!

    Thanks for the update. I’m sorry to hear about your situation. My wife has told me that our children will be raised in the LDS Church with or without me. I do not object to this. I don’t think the LDS Church is a bad influence (quite the contrary). I think when they are old enough they will be able to decide for themselves. I plan on letting them know slowly about the things I know so they can make an informed decision.

    My wife agrees with me that our children should be the ones to decide if they want to be baptized at 8 years old. So we have emphasized to my 7 year old that it is his choice and that he shouldn’t just do it because everyone else is. We gave him a Book of Mormon and asked him to read it before his next birthday (about a year away).

    Fortunately my wife will not leave me if I stop attending the LDS Church. Right now it doesn’t really bother me to go. Sometimes there is actually some good discussion in class. I don’t think it is right for your wife to give you such an ultimatum. However, I understand why she might get defensive. Try to be sensitive to her concerns (I know you probably are doing that). I try to do the same for my wife.

    Have you talked with your Bishop about what you’re going through? You can read the post on how my talk went. I know other people have had positive experiences also. For me it was liberating to not have to hide it anymore.

  4. Jay,

    Liberating yes…until the next time you need a temple recommend. Then you need to decide if your level doubt still allows you to answer the questions in the positive. That’s when it gets tricky.

    Just in case it wasn’t clear in my earlier comment, for me the jury is still out on whether BY ordered the MMM, or knew about it and did nothing, or influenced it in some fashion. I know he influenced it at the very least by opening turning his eyes away from (and in some cases encouraging) Indian raids on passing settlers. This could have been taken by local leaders as sanction. I am interested to see the slant given by the movie.

  5. You could be right. I want to believe that I will still be able to answer affirmatively. If not then what will be will be. I have to be honest with myself.

    I think BY did influence MMM in some fashion by the way he talked and acted during that time. But I’m not even close to saying he order it. I have listened to several people that present the case that BY was behind it all. Their arguments are all base on circumstantial evidence. If someone has solid evidence then I will have to accept that. Until then I’m willing to give BY the benefit of the doubt.
    I don’t think the movie is going to be favorable toward BY, based on the trailer and comments of people that have seen advanced screenings.

  6. I am a decendant of John D. Lee. I believe he was guilty for his part in the MMM, but find it very disappointing that he had to take the full blame for this horrible incident, so that other leaders in the church would not be prosecuted. If you want to read a good book about the MMM and early Mormonism, try Mormonism Unveiled. Can’t wait for the movie to come out.

  7. Yes, I do believe if everything fell out the way it should have there would have been many more people found guilty of this horrible crime. Politics played a big role in John D. Lee being the only one to pay for MMM.

    Unfortunately, I don’t believe that Mormonism Unveiled gives an impassionate view of the event. The sad thing is that there aren’t really any books that just state all facts and let the reader decide (perhaps a book like that doesn’t sell very good). I’m hopeful that one will eventually be written. Until then, no one book alone can provide a clear picture of what really happened.

  8. Wow, I think that this is going to be ugly! Come sept 11th… ummm… there are going to be alot of questions, from Mormons that will be blindsighted and non mormons that want answers.

    Up until 3 days ago, I had NEVER heard of the MMM and now thankfully I have.

    I agree with Jay on this point, no one book adequately depicts this tragedy. Why Jay, are you thinking of putting one together?

  9. No, I think the books out there can give a feelling for the event. Enough evidence has been presented for someone to make up their mind either way. It all depends how you want to view it. If you have a guilty until proven inocent mentality you will say BY ordered the massacre. If you are of the opposite mindset you will wait until there is proof. Right now that “smoking gun” just does not exist. Until then I give BY the benefit of the doubt.

    Has anyone read this month’s Ensign article on the MMM? What did you think? I have some ideas, but I’d like to hear what everyone else thought.

  10. Well it certainly pulls no punches, it is very clear that the church claims a certain amount of responsibility, yet maintains that B.Y. made every effort to quell any further disputes.

    I like that there was an effort made to humanise the people involved in the murders, giving them some amount of reason for their actions. Not to excuse them or validate…
    While remebering the suffering of family and the generations to come, and not detracting from their subsequent loss and pain.

    It was tactful yet hard hitting. I did not think that it was an attempt to shy away from the obvious, and thought it was a valiant effort to stay true to the event.

    Well done in my opinion, a HUGE step in the right direction on the church’s behalf… that is where I want to be getting my information.

  11. I think it goes further than most LDS authored articles that delve into LDS history. The issue I just can’t get past is the motive.

    Is the LDS church trying to put enough dirt on itself out there to appear sincere, without spilling all the beans?


    Is the LDS church trying to change its long-standing posture and come clean on its history?

    I don’t know the answer, but I’ll be honest. It is hard for me to trust the LDS church based on their past history regarding their past history.

    I just don’t trust them.

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